Hate to see this sort of thing..

Discussion in 'Face Plant' started by Heyload, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. mhpr262

    mhpr262 Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Oddometer:
    4,086
    Location:
    Erding, Germany
    We have a system like that in Germany - tiered licensing (50 hp only for the first two years), manadatory hours spent in the driving school classroom, a very thorough traffic rules theroretical test, another shorter motorcycle specific theoretical test, ten mandatory riding lessons (night, Autobahn, overland) with your instructor following you on his own bike or in a car, also practicing hard braking and swerving round cones on a parking lot and a final test by an independent tester ... it is thorough but the downside is of course the cost. A motorcycle license costs you easily 2000$ or more. As a result a big problem over here is that younger people don't take up motorcycling any more. It has become somewhat unhip, but also because it has become near unaffordable. The average rider age here is somewhere north of 50, IIRC:
    #41
  2. Herkmech

    Herkmech Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Oddometer:
    65
    Location:
    Olive Branch Ms
    Well said :clap:freaky
    #42
  3. mhpr262

    mhpr262 Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Oddometer:
    4,086
    Location:
    Erding, Germany
    I would gladly sacrifice my tiered licence system if I could be sure my government wasn't snooping on everything I write on the internet or say on a phone in exchange. Or your government either ... :deal
    #43
  4. Robert_W

    Robert_W Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Oddometer:
    323
    Location:
    NW Montana
    Is there a link or anything to document this claim? Did I miss something?
    #44
  5. Robert_W

    Robert_W Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Oddometer:
    323
    Location:
    NW Montana
    I would love to see something like this in the states. For ALL drivers. 2, 4 or 18 wheels. The requirements for getting a license here are an absolute joke. And the penalties for screwing up even more of a joke.
    #45
  6. Colotrooper

    Colotrooper n00b

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2012
    Oddometer:
    7
    In my post I mentioned that I had read somewhere that as much as 70% of Colorado riders do not have a motorcycle endorsement, (sorry, no link). I then asked if that also meant they didn't have insurance. Pretty safe assumption that if they aren't endorsed they don't carry insurance.

    Google uninsured motorcycle riders and unlicensed motorcycle riders. Lots of info out there. Some eye openers. One NTSA study said 47% of motorcycle deaths are unlicensed riders. Another article said 70% of motorcycle deaths are those without any professional riding training. Regardless of what study you read, it's obvious that untrained riders represent a disproportionate % of accidents and deaths.
    #46
  7. UNO_RIDER

    UNO_RIDER Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Oddometer:
    96
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    Sad to read about these things. I feel bad for all involved. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Life is about choices. Sometimes good choices are made and sometimes not. Everyone learns from their choices whether they are bad or good. The material excitement from a new bike took away the young man's logical thought process which resulted in his death. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Nevertheless, I don't think the dealership has an obligation to keep the rider from taking a purchased bike without an endorsement---maybe a moral obligation, but nothing more..... <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Im not one for there to be additional mandates or graduated licensing for motorcycle riding. If you want to take the risk without proper endorsements or learning how to operate it's on you, again a self-proclaimed decision. In 90% of rider crashes the only person that's going to get physically hurt or killed is the rider (emotionally there could be many). <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    The argument of proper endorsement/training for driving a large semi or flying a plane is much different because asset values and the potential collateral damage (hurting others) is much higher, so it's not apples to apples argument when applying to a motorcycle licensing.

    <o:p> </o:p>I learned how to ride motorcycles by being a passenger on dirt bikes and street bikes as a young child. Even got to ride my buddies hodaca 50 in the baseball field (good times). As I got older, I learned and raced motocross and crashed lots (hurt too). It wasn't until I was 20 that I got my 1st street bike a FZR600. I didn't have a endorsement when I bought it, but I knew how to ride and understood there was a lot of responsibility between my legs and a lot of potential pain or death if I crashed so I took it easy and rode smart.





    #47
  8. woofer2609

    woofer2609 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Oddometer:
    847
    Location:
    Extreme Pacific SouthWest (of Canada)
    It makes good business sense, regardless of what is being sold to take care of a client as corpses seldom make good repeat customers.
    If his guys bike had slid into you, or me coming the other way on our motorbikes, we could be seriously injured or killed. Add to this the fact he wouldn't be covered by insurance, I'd be pretty devastated. We have a social responsibility to look after one another. Not babysit, because if someone wants to chainsaw open their own leg, more power to them, as there would be no innocent bystanders traumatized/ injured.
    #48
  9. Sp4rks

    Sp4rks Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    247
    Location:
    Texas
    I live in San Antonio, I took the "motorcycle safety course" at the age of 15(limited to 250cc limit until I turned 16), it was a joke. About half the people there never road a motorcycle before(one guy asked if they had any automatics, and thought that you accelerated with your right foot). It takes 3 days to get a permit here, day one of safety course on Saturday, day two on Sunday, go to DMV monday, take a written test(questions like, "Where is a rear brake located?"), no road test. And be on your way. But honestly, most wrecks here are older people(read: stubborn, finally have the cash for their Goldwing, still think modern bikes have drum brakes, ride with their feet off the pegs, etc). At least when a young guy takes a course he pays attention and doesn't have crappy habits.

    But this guy didn't even have that, the dealership I go to, Kent Powersports(dealership the dead guy was at was alamocycle plex, Kent is much better and larger anyways, still no KTM bikes though), gives you 4 options if you want to take home a bike with out a license:
    1)transport it in your truck/trailer
    2)they deliver it to you
    3)a friend takes it to your house
    4)you take a safety course, get a license and come get it later
    secret option 5)you don't get the bike, fuck off

    Not the dealership's fault, he made his choice.
    #49
  10. Roselover58

    Roselover58 n00b

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2013
    Oddometer:
    1
    Location:
    Texas hill country
    I live outside San Antonio, and this was on our news. The mom was there for the sale, and (for whatever reason) let him ride it out. She was behind him when he lost control of the bike. The dealership is on a very busy frontage road - it sometimes takes me quite a while to find a spot to scoot out into traffic. The frontage road is three lanes wide, and is busy all times of day/night.

    I feel the mother, as she watched him lose control and then get run over, and I feel for the person in the 4-runner, who tried to miss him, but it was so fast she didn't have a change.
    #50
  11. Ray of Sunshine

    Ray of Sunshine Meat Donut 2 Some

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Oddometer:
    16,864
    Location:
    42deg 40' 3"N 73deg 46' 54"W
    When I bought my first bike, a 1972 Suzuki GT750L, the infamous water buffalo, I had never driven a motorcycle. I assured the dealer I had ridden a bike while in the service in Japan.

    I rode about six blocks in a light drizzle ( no, I was going to ride that fucker) dropped it in its right side when I gave it too much clutch. Lifted it back up and dropped it on the left. A nice guy helped me lift it up and put it on its side stand. I called the dealer and they sent a truck.

    We laughed for years over that one. I even bought my BMW from them.
    #51
  12. MoodyBlues

    MoodyBlues Hey! Watch this.

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Oddometer:
    476
    Location:
    Belton, Texas
    Sad situation. After buying quite a few bikes here in Texas and working for a dealer I think there will be more legal repercussions for this dealer. Here in texas the bike must have insurance (must send copy of DL showing mc endorsement to insurance company), mc must have proof for application of tags (temp tag) and in order for us to submit that we must submit DL number and info....and DL endorsements. To physically pick up the motorcycle rider must show valid DL with MC endorsement. Your buddy can not ride it off the lot. Trust me, I've seen some PO'ed customers try to slide by. They threaten to call the cops, we call them for them, and DPS always ask for....yes, the DL. They lose every time. Seen a bike sit in back for 2 months while the owner obtained his riders permit.

    Ultimately it's individual responsibility...as a rider and a dealer. Very sad situation thou. As a parent I can't imagine that pain... Ride safe and mentor a rider.
    #52
  13. TheBlurr

    TheBlurr Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2013
    Oddometer:
    5,588
    Location:
    Montana
    Some counties have a graduated system, I am all for it, actually I would like people to even learn on a bicycle first.

    I took my first suspension clinic (some riding as well in relation to suspension how it handles ect) about 15 years after riding on the street, learned tons.

    The next year I enrolled in an Advanced riding clinic, learned tons more.

    You can never learn enough, never practice enough, and never be aware enough.

    Let us hope we all have a safe rest of the year and arrive at our destinations with a brew served by a big breasted lady and a smile.
    #53
  14. FirstPath

    FirstPath Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,372
    Location:
    Formerly Shoreview, MN
    I will drink to that!
    #54
  15. Bollocks

    Bollocks Farts with an Accentâ„¢

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Oddometer:
    5,580
    Location:
    Watauga lake, 10-E-C
    How come nearly every state prohibits the sale of alcohol to intoxicated people but not the sale of a vehicle to someone with no license which means he couldn't have gotten insurance on the thing and enable them to break the law.
    #55
  16. husqvarna

    husqvarna Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    143
    Location:
    Darkest Efrika
    In another world it could have been my son so I am all for graded licencing and testing. As quite a few older members have indicated that is how we learnt, Start on a 50cc Puch moped on a farm road and scare yourself snotless. Then a Honda 90 with those funny forks, Suzuki 185, Honda 250, Husky 360, 390, 430 etc etc. Mostly on dirt.

    But also I think traffic has changed. Cars are sofa's for texting with cruise control and there are more of them and a wider range of driving abilities and attention spans. Back in the day it was a man's job and by golly he had to pay attention with thin tyres, rod brakes, flip out turn signals (your arm), wandering steering and suspension etc. Ditto for motor cycles. They had to be coaxed up to speed and had drum brakes and most were prone to tank slapping (not the Huskies!). Although if my first bike had been the 360 (I had it on the road as well as offroad!!) I may not be writing this.

    Reason for my diatribe - we still have pretty much the same licencing procedure as 30 years ago but the traffic scenario has changed significantly. Licencing should also.
    #56
  17. BrucePaul

    BrucePaul Adventure rider

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Oddometer:
    23
    Location:
    Coconut Creek, FL
    No matter what you do, You cannot help someone who refuses it, you cannot help stupid
    #57
  18. Lacedaemon

    Lacedaemon Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Oddometer:
    626
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    As a new rider in a busy area with crappy traffic, I insisted on getting my first (decidedly un-super) bike delivered, which the dealership did for free (they just asked me to tip the driver) even though it was about 30 miles into the heart of the perpetual traffic jam.

    If you finance a bike, the dealer has a lot more leverage since the finance company will require insurance (and has a lien to make their wishes stick) and the insurance company will require the endorsement. If you don't finance a bike, the dealer still has the upper hand since if you do call the police to take your property, they will look at the license and not let you on the road. At that point, the dealer is just being nice to you for letting your store your stuff on their lot.

    I've got to say, learning things like throttle control on a bike without enough power to cause me instant and unmanageable problems if I screw it up is pretty important. I am all for graduated licensing, and I don't think it's an affront to personal freedom. Once you have licensing at all, that ship has sailed. And if you are going to have licensing, the program should be designed to achieve the social goal, which graduated programs do better than just requiring an endorsement.

    I don't like the German style with thousands of dollars of education required. The barrier to entry is too high. Perhaps require something like that to graduate from Tier I to Tier II so that folks have a chance to decide whether it's worth it to them or not?

    I got my license via an MSF course and found it very, very helpful but certainly not enough do declare "job done" on the learning. I am still learning the basics, but am having a blast. I do intend to invest in more training in the future because frankly, the better control you have of the bike the more fun it is in addition to increasing your life expectancy.

    Dirt riding as an introduction is not an option for those of us in urban areas without venues. As nice as it would be to have a dirt bike (and I wanted one something awful as a kid) it's just not an option if you don't have easy access to the dirt. I have to learn on the street, so I bought a bike I could handle and pick my routes and times of day with care. It's not perfect, but has worked for me so far.

    At the end of the day, a certain number of reckless stunt riders will kill themselves. But the odds go down dramatically if we can enforce licensing requirements and get them through the initial really steep learning curve of the basic body coordination to operate the bike without dying.
    #58
  19. toy4fun

    toy4fun GET out of the way

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2011
    Oddometer:
    504
    Location:
    Beautiful downtown Roy, WA
    What about a state that does not require insurance for a motorcycle....washington. No helmet....idaho and on. We can not legislate the things that keep us alive...common sense. These stories are about people that will eventually end up dead due to something they can not think thru. Unfortunately, many times they injure or kill the rest of us.:cry


    On the way to work this gentleman on a sportster with high rise bars and new tires felt the need to slow down at a stop sign. Guess he felt he needed to be in front of the cager. It was very surreal watching elbows and assholes flop around with the bike in front of me. He ended up on top of the bike cussing because his own common sense failed him and he needed something to blame. Dam I wish I had spell checker!
    #59
  20. SgtDuster

    SgtDuster Long timer

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Oddometer:
    3,493
    Location:
    Province of Quebec!
    Are you really trying to teach this on a US forum? Good luck fellow! :freaky
    #60