Help! Immobilizer won't let me start her!

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by Suncruiser, Jan 2, 2011.

  1. Suncruiser

    Suncruiser and Adventurer

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    What I'd like in a bike is the fun factor of the current 990 r, the reliability of a hammer and if things really do go wrong I want to be able to fix them myself on the road.
    I'd love to take my 990 r to africa and south america, but I don't want get stranded there with no support or weeks to wait for a fix. come on, who needs an immobilizer in an adventure bike with no workaround possible?
    #21
  2. catalina38

    catalina38 Long timer

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    Maybe the TuneEcu thread can find a way to disable it.
    #22
  3. Chuckracer

    Chuckracer Jerkus Maximus

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    Yep, I agree with that. Look at modern cars and trucks. Now the Check Engine Light come on and your off to the dealer. You can't fix these things. You're not supposed to.
    Bikes are following that model and going the same way. Too bad. It's the end of an era.
    #23
  4. GoNOW

    GoNOW Long timer

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    As an ASE certified mechanic in fuel injection, I can tell you that is bogus in most cases. I can plug in my $80 code reader into most cars and tell you a wealth of information in seconds. Look up the code in the service manual and it will tell you exactly what to replace and how to do it. Lots of EFI trash cam out in the 1980-1990 that gave EFI a bad rap, but the new stuff is a walk in the park.
    #24
  5. Chuckracer

    Chuckracer Jerkus Maximus

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    My carbs don't throw codes. They just work. But if for some reason they don't work right, or I want to change they way they work and I'm NOT an ASE certified mechanic with a code reader, I can still fix or adjust them. No trip to see you required. No appointemnt, dropping off the bike, picking the bike a week later and hoping it's fixed...etc.

    This is just my personal angle, but I don't have a KTM dealer within 250 or more miles, so it's all down to me. Less electronic BS, the better on MY bike.
    #25
  6. GoNOW

    GoNOW Long timer

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    You seem to have missed my point. Or I didn't make myself clear. Also, I am speaking of automotive in general. Motorcycle EFI is having some growing pains and like OBD1, it's different for every manufacture, so it's a bit of a pain to work on. But that will change for motorcycles like it did for cars.

    I have have/had many bikes and quads with carbs over the years. My 950 has carbs. They work, but I still hate carbs. Want some examples from the past 2 months?

    1986 GL1200 Goldwing: Carbs are so hard to get in and out, I will never get it to run, just right, because it takes 45 minutes to extract them. It's missing a bit, but it's good enough so I am leaving it.

    2001 Ninja 250 (the gas guzzler) How can a Ninja 250 get 30MPG? Don't know, but this one does. I replaced every jet and spit shined the carbs. It's still running rich. I have to run the mains 2 sizes leaner just to get 50MPG.

    Kohler 2 cylinder 25HP engine. It just formed a hole in the brass float and hydro-locked the engine. I took out the spark plugs and cranked it and got showered with fuel. That could have been really bad (aka, BOOM). I have had the carb out of this engine at least 15 times last year.

    Honda FL250. Won't idle when warm. Swap carbs with another one, works great. Can't see anything different between the two carbs or why it won't idle.

    Yamaha TW. The new gas has eaten all the seals away from the carb. So it seeps fuel. And it does not like starting on the electric starter, but the kick start works great.

    See why I hate carbs? Anything EFI (admittedly, I have only worked on EFI cars, no bikes yet) tends to be very simple to fix. Plug the scan tool in, it tells you what is wrong, then you replace that. Trained monkeys (aka, certified auto mechanics) could do it.:D If no codes come up, you have live information on what exactly is going on that will often tell you what is wrong.

    My point being, you can fix modern cars yourself. Don't let the computer stuff scare you. It's easier then working with stupid carbs.
    And I can't wait till motorcycles get generic DLC connectors so I can plug any old scantool in and get codes. It will happen.
    #26
  7. catalina38

    catalina38 Long timer

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    The new tools like TuneEcu are quickly changing the ability of owners to diagnose and repair their own bikes:clap
    #27
  8. nomad guy

    nomad guy A legal alien

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    i remember how in the beginning of the 90's we started seeing more and more electronics coming into heavy equipment e.g CAT, J.D, CLAAS, NEW- HOLLAND, CASE etc.
    the old mechanics that didn't want to adapt or were just to lazy or scared to learn said: "that this is the end of the industry and nothing would work. nothing is reliable as steel."
    they said the same thing about can-bus when it was introduced. sure why dont you try finding a short circuit in a 45 wire harness bandle with 7 multi conectors along the way.
    sure the electronics had some childhood problems but in general electronics are more reliable and easier to fix then the mechanics.
    not to mention the performance in every field they are introduced to:
    hydraulics, engine controllers, controllers in general.
    how many of you whiners want to have points instead of an ecu.
    saying all that i am riding a carbureted 04 950s :D.
    #28
  9. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    I agree that the 'management' systems on a machine that is supposed to be 'worldwide adventure ready' should have better in situation overrides or limp modes to enable the owner/rider to continue operating the machine. I see this as one of the main design failures of the current 'management' systems. One of the others is related to the EFI system itself, and in some respects is the heart of it or at the very least a critical component, the filtration. Aside from the tendency of the OEM maps to cause abrupt throttle response and in some cases poor fuel consumption, the high pressure fuel system should be at minimum a 50,000 mile serviceable item. Example: My 94 Subaru Legacy Turbo has 240000 miles on the original injectors, I just replaced the inline fuel filter as a mater of 'well I should do that at some time' after 160000 miles of use... and the in tank fuel pump and intake filter had ~160000 on it before I replaced it with a 255lh high performance pump. Point being is that the well designed 'modern' EFI systems work for a very long time and in most cases do so with little to no problems.

    Personally I prefer 1s and 0s when it comes to tuning, but there are challenges present there that good old analog (carbs) systems do really well. I ride a 04 950 w/ carbs. It runs well and I usually don't have problems with it. Yes, sometimes simple is better, but I believe that a EFI/ECU managed engine can be a better solution provided there are failure modes and/or overrides that will allow the rider to at the very least get to a place where repairs can be made.

    :freaky
    #29
  10. GoNOW

    GoNOW Long timer

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    Agreed. To win a bet, I had a mid 2000 Honda Accord V6 running on just 2 cylinders and with every sensor unplugged but the crank position sensor. There is quite good fail over/limp home modes in modern cars.

    In contrast, most 1990s cars are not failure tolerant. Unplug the MAP sensor and it won't run. Motorcycle EFI tech seems to be around the 1990s right now. Give it time.
    #30
  11. Chuckracer

    Chuckracer Jerkus Maximus

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    I will - I have no choice! :cry :lol3
    #31
  12. nomad guy

    nomad guy A legal alien

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    it seems like KTM does not have the resources to be on the cutting edge regarding electronics.
    the good, tried and efficient products are already in the motorcycle, automotive and industrial/AG. market for a very long time now.
    maybe KTM needs to be bought by BMW so they could have some money for r&d.
    #32
  13. nevermind

    nevermind sLOW Rider

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    :eek1
    #33
  14. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    :lol3 :rofl

    Would seem that the CanBus on BMWs is better and has fewer fault issues that I am not aware of? Or was it intended to be a not so subtle hook in the water?

    Perhaps we should start a not for profit entity that can collect donations in the interest of improving KTM motorcycle's control and management systems... that doesn't sound half baked, right? :freaky
    #34
  15. unaweep

    unaweep Uses lotsa band-aids

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    Keep going guys. I'm a learnin' stuff here.:thumb

    Seems there ought to be a way to cheaply and reliably measure the fuel output to then translate that into an accurate fuel gauge. Riding in Baja a couple weeks ago it would have been nice to know my fuel situation a bit more accurately, especially with the changing conditions- sand/silt/gravel roads/slab.

    But, if that sounds stupid, I confess Colorado Uli told me that in Baja.:lol3


    W'us up Uli!:flip
    #35
  16. GoNOW

    GoNOW Long timer

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    In an automotive application, that's dead easy. As standard, every car spits out of the DLC (that plug under the dash you connect your scan tool to), the RPM and how long the injectors are being held open. With a bit of calibration, you can figure out how much has has been used.

    I just found this that may work on the KTM EFI.
    http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/MPGuino

    And it shows how much fuel it has used to far. For 55 bucks, I am ordering one for my truck.
    #36
  17. nomad guy

    nomad guy A legal alien

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    i never said that BMW is better . i said they have a lot more $$$$
    to invest in R&D. i think that the early efi models behavior is not something KTM can be proud of.ready to race my a$s:D and yes it was a stink bomb in the middle of the party...:evil
    any way this thread is getting so of track....my apologize to the op.
    #37
  18. K2m

    K2m ....58....

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    All TPS controled EFI has this problem......... the Kato stands out because of the shape of it's power delivery. If you could throw away the EPA rule book you could tune most of it away. It will never happen with closed loop operating.............


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #38
  19. Moraflex

    Moraflex Banned

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    I would immobilize the immobilizer ASAP. Rip that crap off the bike. It completely ruined your vacation, which in my opinion is a priceless loss. Will KTM reimburse you for your valuable time off the bike due to a 10 cent part that never should have been on a dirt bike in the first place? Highly unlikely.

    Beyond fuel injection, a bike that goes off road should be plain and simple, even anti-lock brakes should be trashed.

    IMHO as always
    #39
  20. Suncruiser

    Suncruiser and Adventurer

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    Immobilize The Immobilizer! ITI!
    I'm all for that. I don't need it at all! I don't want it at all. seems though that the way its been built is a way that leaves no alternatives. The ECU won't allow starting the bike without confirmation from the antenna/ignition lock without the right key in it. no antenna no go. only option might be reprogramming ECU but I have no idea if that is possible at all.
    #40