Hotrodding the GS

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by Poolside, Nov 18, 2010.

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  1. FlyingFinn

    FlyingFinn Long timer

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    The "lean pop" from the exhaust when going off throttle IS NOT a sign of lean jetting.
    So if the popping is only "issue" you're experiencing then you're good. There's no issue.

    --
    Mikko
  2. johnjen

    johnjen I've Been Resigned

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    To help minimize the pop make sure the throttle is FULLY closed when decelerating.

    The IICE Air deals primarily with one fuel injection algorithm as explained in several posts in the early portion of this thread. And while it is adjustable it is designed for compatibility with other IICE products and extreme temperature environments.

    JJ
  3. BMWzenrider

    BMWzenrider The Road Scholar

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    Ok, I actually read this ENTIRE thread and have not seen all of my questions answered.

    Bikes:
    2002 R1150R(A) - Stock except for canister disconnected.
    Will readily ping/knock under hard acceleration (worse with low-grade fuel, of course...). Local fuel is all 10% ethanol added, all grades.
    It never suffered from the 'surging' of other oilheads until after I had my canister clog up which required it to be disconnected (after a couple of fillups of the tank which showed that it was not venting properly {vacuum in the tank}, so the pump was probably working extra hard).

    2005 R1200RT with Hannigan LT sidecar attached - Canisterectomy, and lowered gearing through combination of 2.75 ST final drive and smaller diameter car tire (~14% total gearing reduction).
    Would like a little more 'oomph' when accelerating and to maintain speed on grades without downshifting. Hopefully with no hit in fuel economy during steady-state cruising.
    I also ride this rig year-round in Wisconsin, so my ambient intake air temps are regularly below freezing for several months of the year, and during the transitional seasons I can experience very wide daily temperatures.

    -----

    I understand that the "Air" product is designed to only affect fueling during "Leading Throttle" conditions, and that future pieces will work in other running modes.

    As such, I am thinking that the current product should help with the pinging/knocking under acceleration that the R1150R suffers from, correct?

    For the sidecar my thought is that this may also help during acceleration due to the added load (weight and drag) that the bike is hauling along, but am not sure whether I am feeling more of an issue of tip in, or steady throttle acceleration. Even with the lower gearing I know that I am always using more throttle for a given speed than when the bike was ridden as a solo.
    I am also wondering if it would be worthwhile to get on-board in order to be able to install the future mods. (will they have any specific benefits for a hex-head dragging along a big & heavy sidecar).
    Anyone else have one of these installed on a sidecar rig with results to relate?

    -----

    A couple of questions:

    1) So, do you think that the current module will have any noticable/beneficial effect for the sidecar rig? If so, why?
    Has anyone else installed one of these on a sidecar rig who can tell what, if any, difference it has made?

    2) I know that at least one other person had talked about a way to more easily alter the offset of the "Air" module due to wide temperature fluctuations in the same day of riding. Has this been addressed by anyone yet?

    3) You mentioned that for the second module (the Cool) in addition to the "accelerator pump" function, you will also be altering the throttle overrun fuel cutoff function. Is your plan to eliminate the fuel cutoff completely or just alter when it engages?
    I tend to use the override fuel shutoff quite a bit when riding locally (coasting up to red lights and stop signs) and can see the positive effect on my average fuel economy. I would hate to lose that benefit.

    4) Will phase 3 (Smooth) require both of the prior modules to opperate?

    5) What is the current projected timeline for the future modules and estimated costs for each?

    -----

    TIA!
  4. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>Hey there Wattner! Hold on to your hat, this is going to get technical.

    Let's start with the condition commonly referred to as 'lean popping' or 'decel popping'. Decel popping is caused by creating a combustible mixture of fuel and air in the exhaust, and then igniting it. POP!

    But the whole idea of it seems a little odd though, doesn't it? "What the heck is a combustible mixture of fuel and air doing the the exhaust in the first place?" I'll try and explain how that happens.

    There's a sequence of events that occurs which results in air and unburned fuel getting into the exhaust. The first thing to happen is the ECU switches to a mode of operation called Overrun Fuel Cutoff. (Link to read more about that.) OFC is the initiator or lead event if you will.

    Overrun Fuel Cutoff happens when you 'roll off' or 'get out of' the throttle. Rolling off the throttle is also called 'Trailing Throttle' or 'Overrun'.

    If you roll off the throttle a small amount, the ECU merely reduces the amount of injected fuel. But if you roll off by a larger amount, at some point the ECU cuts off the fuel flow completely. Hence the name Overrun Fuel Cutoff.

    Do you get that so far? Roll off the gas far enough, and at some level of trailing throttle a limit or threshold is crossed. And when that happens the ECU switches to Overrun Fuel Cutoff. The ECU is programmed with a set of rules that determines when to switch over to OFC.

    A characteristic of Overrun Fuel Cutoff is that during OFC, the motor isn't actually running. The motor is turning because of the inertia of the bike, but there is no flame in the combustion chamber. You may as well have switched off the ignition key.

    There is no 'decel popping' during Overrun Fuel Cutoff because there is no fuel being injected to ignite. During OFC the exhaust plumbing begins filling with normal oxygen-rich air. Because when the fuel is cut off, the motor is merely an air pump.


    So that's how the fuel gets turned off. What causes injection to resume? It's pretty much the opposite condition. You've backed way out of the throttle, to enter a corner say, and OFC is in effect. Now you're about mid-corner and your going to pick up the throttle a little. As you begin opening the throttle, fuel cutoff is still in effect.

    Pick up the throttle far enough, and at some point trailing throttle is reduced enough so that the 'fuel cutoff threshold' is crossed again, and the ECU begins injecting fuel.

    To be continued...
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  5. Wattner

    Wattner Long timer

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  6. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>Previously:
    Pick up the throttle far enough, and at some point trailing throttle is reduced enough so that the 'fuel cutoff threshold' is crossed again, and the ECU begins injecting fuel.

    Continued from previous post...


    In the above example, the ECU is in the 'fuel cutoff transition area' let's call it. The bike is still decelerating slightly, but not quite enough to solidly engage the fuel cutoff routine. Not every combustion cycle is getting fuel. Some are, and some aren't. The ECU cannot clearly decide what to do with the rider input.

    This fuel cutoff/resume transitional area is sort of a 'non-definitive operational range' say. The ECU is literally straddling the fence. Sometimes injecting fuel, sometimes not.

    If you're an electronic technician you might recognize the condition described above as output signal noise occurring at the input threshold. The technical description of the problem is that the ECU algorithm doesn't have enough hysteresis surrounding the fuel cutoff threshold.

    This cutoff/resume transitional area is the operational range where Decel Popping happens.

    Here are a few questions that are sometimes asked at this point. "If the ECU begins injecting fuel, how can that cause decel popping?" and "Won't the injected fuel simply burn normally in the next combustion cycle?" and "What the hell are you talking about, Jim?"

    I'll try and answer those questions in the next post. As well as describe what effects the IICE Air, Cool, and Smooth, and also the Techlusion, might have on the issue of decel popping.

    To be continued...

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  7. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <BR>I see your post up there BMWzenrider. I'll get to it after I finish with Wattner's questions.

    <BR>
  8. MSteven

    MSteven Adventurer

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    Yoohoo, Poolside dude.
    Just a note letting you know my majic device arrived today. You beat me to it, the GS is still in butt in the air condition.

    Thanks, I'll let you know how it works. I sure would like to take it with me to Alaska in July, but I can't get it in overhead storage.
  9. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Regarding Jim's good comments on decel popping, here is the Motronic MA 2.4 logic for when OFC kicks in: overrun fuel cutoff.

    Regarding decel popping, I agree that yes, the throttle does have to be open a couple degrees for the fueling to come back on but I believe the popping occurs due to misfire due to leanness due to air filter or exhaust mods, and maybe due to lean fuel e10. Once the engine misfires (hard to detect when decelerating) that misfired fuel ignites and pops in the exhaust.
  10. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    That isn't what I'm saying, Roger. It is more interrelated than that.

    I'll be done with this short primer in a couple of posts. There will be plenty of time for opinion and voting.


    <BR>
  11. darmahman

    darmahman "Illogically Deluded"

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    Put the ICEE Air on just now and took it for a quick spin around the block. What I noticed: Starts quicker, idles slightly higher, and just as advertised smoother transitions between idle/ off idle. Not huge changes but definitely noticeable positive drivability changes. Easy install - very good workmanship.

    Now with that ringing endorsement and having waited months for mine, can I be first in line for the IICE cool??? :D

    Thanks PS. Hope you are getting rich off this after taking such verbal abuse from us inmates.:clap
  12. KCDakar

    KCDakar What are we waiting for?

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    BMWzenride, you have a PM. I got your message before I got to this thread or I would have answered here. It's 3:30 am and I need to hit the hay. When I get some needed sleep I will come back and answer in more detail your questions you have posted.

    And until then, buy it!!! :D
  13. tmgs

    tmgs ...Trailers are for Boats

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    Has anyone put this on and run the bike on a gas analyzer and a dyno before and after? I did dig through some of the posts, but wow there are a ton!

    I would like to see the results if so

    thanks!
  14. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    I have put in a BoosterPlug and run an AFR gauge during Closed Loop operation--there was no difference and none expected since the O2 controls the fueling to a ratio of 14.7:1. With the O2 sensor disconnected, the mixture was richened 6% as claimed because the device altered the temp sensor signal such that the Motronic measured a temperature 20C colder than actual and richens the mixture accordingly. Most Oilheads are in Closed Loop operation about half the time. I would expect the same results with an Iice Air set at 20C. See post #82 on this page, http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749080&page=6.

    I don't know what a dyno run would show, maybe not much since dyno runs are usually made on intertial dynomometer with the throttle wide open for the whole "pull". The Motronic already uses a pretty rich mixture at WOT.
  15. Deco

    Deco Been here awhile

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    +1

    Same experience here. Very nice mod. Thanks PS for all the work!!:clap:clap:clap

    I have only ridden a short time with it but the difference is very apparent. It smooths out some of the throttle's rough edges, please forgive my lack technical expertise in describing the performance.

    Me likey.

    Bring on the IICE Cool! :lol3
  16. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>Hey there TM. The IICE Air richens the mixture by 6% during Open-loop operation.

    For Open-loop operation that is the expected result from lowering the Intake Air Temperature input to the ECU. As you can imagine, the fuel/air ratio is a mass ratio calculation, and the temperature and pressure of the air is used to calculate the mass of the air.

    For Closed-loop operation, the ECU still relies on air temperature and pressure, but 'adjusts' its mass ratio calculations based on feedback from the O2 sensor. This 'feedback adjustment' eventually negates the 6% enrichment during Closed-loop operation.

    Thinking about the differences between Open-loop and Closed-loop for a minute might lead a person to think that disconnecting the O2 sensor would be the way to go. You know. The imagined solution is to eliminate the O2 sensor feedback and the ECU will not know what to do. The idea is it will switch over to to a rich 'limp home' mode. Which sounds great except that isn't the way it works.

    The ECU has the primary task of creating the proper exhaust constituents to properly operate the catalyst. That is its primary task, not the secondary task, the primary task. To support that objective the ECU is programmed to create the right exhaust constituents with or without O2 sensor feedback. The ECU does a much better job of that with the O2 sensor feedback than without. Running the ECU without an O2 sensor input makes Closed-loop drivability worse long term.
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  17. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    I think that's plenty enough technical for most people. Thanks for the kudos, folks.

    <BR>
  18. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <BR>Build Process - Start to Finish - Group 1 Pics
    Build Process - Start to Finish - Group 2 Pics
    Build Process - Start to Finish - Group 3 Pics
    Build Process - Start to Finish - Group 4 Pics

    ...to be continued


    I thought you'd enjoy seeing a build process from start to finish.

    If you have questions about a particular step, please DO NOT QUOTE THE ENTIRE RUN OF PICTURES.&#8194;:D&#8194;Thank you.


    Start off with parts for 100 IICE Airs.

    [​IMG]


    Begin with the bare board.

    [​IMG]


    IICE AIr circuit board and custom 3x3 pin array, with the corner pins unpopulated.

    [​IMG]


    Pin array fits here...

    [​IMG]


    ...and soldered in place.

    [​IMG]


    A batch of 32.

    [​IMG]


    The thermistors fit in 3 corners, but in this position they are too low.
    The thermistor bodies must be soldered in place above the surface of the board.

    [​IMG]


    Spacers to establish the correct thermistor 'stand off' height.

    [​IMG]


    This is a fixture to hold the IICE Air board in place, and to provide clearance from the vice jaws.

    [​IMG]


    The Air board and thermistors sitting upside down in the fixture.
    You can see the thermistor bodies are now spaced some distance from the board.

    [​IMG]


    In the vice...

    [​IMG]


    ...and soldered.

    [​IMG]


    Correct thermistor stand off height.

    [​IMG]


    Next up is the preparation of the waterproof enclosure for the jumper pins.&#8194;Next group of pics.

    <BR>
  19. Andrew

    Andrew Optimus Primer Super Moderator

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    :clap

    looks like a slow teedious process...
  20. BMWzenrider

    BMWzenrider The Road Scholar

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    :ddog

    Bueller???

    :hide
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