Hotrodding the GS

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by Poolside, Nov 18, 2010.

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  1. johnjen

    johnjen I've Been Resigned

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    And after you swap out the accelerator module for the IICE Air let us know what you notice as the differences.

    JJ
  2. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

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    What you notice? Well, now we have marketing at its best. The only way to actually tell what is going on is to put the bike on a dyno and test the air-fuel ratio and HP produced throughout the rev range using each. Also vs. stock but we know stock is tuned to lean.

    Without empirical testing its just opinion. :norton. It may feel better but whether it is actually producing more HP and doing so at the correct or best AFR you will never know.
  3. Spoke

    Spoke Wing Ding

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    Go away, party pooper:flip
  4. johnjen

    johnjen I've Been Resigned

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    Um. 'the only way to tell what is going on isÂ…'

    Uh so that would mean that an individuals experience and perceptions don't count, at all?

    Now I'm not saying that such a series of tests wouldn't provide some valuable data but running a bike on a dyno isn't how I ride my bike, nor does it really tell how the engine responds to changes in throttle, since a dyno run is usually at wide open throttle, and not at varying throttle and rpm conditions. And it is at varying conditions where the IICE Air is most beneficial, not at wide open throttle, a condition I have very seldom used. And peak horsepower, which is what a dyno run yields has very little real world use, unless you're running on a track, not on the street.

    So if a dyno run is 'the only way to tell what is going on' then perhaps you'll do us the honor of performing the test and interpreting the results to real world use (i.e. during dynamic throttle and rpm conditions)?

    Which is where my original question was aimed in the first place "let us know what you notice as the differences."

    JJ
  5. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

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    Ya know, I forgot that the BMW has a system that runs in both open and closed loop at different times. So yes a straight up dyno run for HP is not effective and would not show what these different widgets are doing.

    That said a dyno run can be performed different ways. A good dyno tuner does not just do a straight 100% open throttle pull, but in is a series of runs at less than 100% throttle. Now that I think about it you are correct that it won't tell you much on this system because of the open and closed loop operation and since the ECU temp foolng only happens when it is working at variable throttle tip.

    Anyway, you can do any number of things using a dyno and smoothig throttle response is one of them. What am saying is that IF these widgets are both doing a straight temp offset then any differences have to do with other variables. Asking what they "feel" is just opinion and in reality a comparison of two 20 degree offset widgets on a different series of days.

    If you put both on a dyno and can track the AFR you will see what each is doing at different times. If there is a difference it will show.. that's all I was saying.
  6. Farnsrocket

    Farnsrocket Manos arribas!!!

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  7. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

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  8. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>I hear what you're saying. The thing is, what you and others are describing as "feel better" is horsepower. All those places where you move the throttle, and the motor feels better than it did before, that's horsepower making you feel good.

    The places where the motor used to feel soft when you cracked the throttle, and now it feels crisp, that's horsepower filling in the gap. Anybody can feel those changes by the seat of their pants.

    Ok, but what about that dyno empirical testing? I have to guess that what people mean is an Eddy Current dyno. From an engineering perspective it would be difficult to imagine a test setup less representative, or less empirical, than the results gleaned from an Eddy Current dyno. But people like those fixed-point dyno maps, and they love the power curve printouts, no question about it.

    The thing you mentioned, "...[horsepower] produced throughout the rev range..." is the domain of the eddy current dyno. Very popular for those with short attention spans. No offense meant, just a plain and serious observation.

    There are dynos and then there are dynos. And it might be that mine and some of you fellas idea of a dyno are two different things. For example, it isn't possible to emulate and measure the result of throttle transitions, on level ground or sloped ground, using an eddy current dyno. And motorcycling, like life, is all about transitions.

    I have 4-dimensional data, with vehicle acceleration/deceleration curves, mapped against throttle position curves, mapped against fuel injector pulsewidth curves, mapped against the fourth dimensions (in this case the rate of change) of the differential of throttle movement and the differential of the fuel injector pulsewidth.

    Then a repeat of that data acquisition, with changes to the Intake Air Temperature input. Is that a lot of data to collect for a simple Intake Air Temperature offset device? I don't know. There's people with short attention spans, and then there's me.
    </td></tr></table>

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  9. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>As others have said, the IICE Air can be expected to perform equally, provided the components are equal. The thing is, after looking at all the advertising and product descriptions from the competitive products, it isn't entirely clear to me how they operate. It isn't that I don't understand the concept of an Intake Air Temperature offset. It's that the descriptions of what the products are, and explanations of how they operate, seem confusing to me.

    Mind you, this from a guy who takes 5 paragraphs to explain tiny details. So you can take the above comment with a grain of salt. :-)

    After all is said and done, the competitive products can be expected to perform equally as well as the IICE Air. Equal that is, as long as the circuit layout and components are equal. And I do not know that they are. Though I'm certainly not going to argue when people say the IICE Air is better.
    </td></tr></table>

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  10. johnjen

    johnjen I've Been Resigned

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    Again if you can track the AFR and the rpm and the throttle position and ALL of the other operating conditions between 3 different running conditions (IICE Air - stock - device of your choice) so that a direct comparison can be accurately made, then you have some results that will truly demonstrate 'all you were saying'.

    I invite you to make the effort.

    JJ
  11. Plane Dr

    Plane Dr Been here awhile

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    Better not be 7/19/11 I was 6/29/11 and I'm still waiting. :deal

    Go with 7/19/10 and you won't get lynched for favouritism..... :freaky
  12. frogy

    frogy Been here awhile

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    Maybe he likes the way I type :evil
  13. hasenwerk

    hasenwerk Long timer

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    Ummm - according to the Wiki article - and knowing I have had one cup of coffee so far - it seem it is a very narrow scope of items and wouldn't cover an item like this. If the law does cover it, it seems that they are breaking California law by offering it for sale period - shipping to Canada has nothing to do with it!
    North America

    California has passed SB 20: Electronic Waste Recycling Act of 2003, or EWRA. This law prohibits the sale of electronic devices after January 1, 2007, that are prohibited from being sold under the EU RoHS directive, but across a much narrower scope that includes LCDs, CRTs, and the like and only covers the four heavy metals restricted by RoHS.

  14. Spoke

    Spoke Wing Ding

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    :lurk Things are heating up in here. No :pep
  15. Codewheeney

    Codewheeney Hoopy Frood

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    What, so you're saying I can use this device on my TARDIS, too?
  16. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    Half asleep you bring a Wikipedia article to the table? :lol3

    Seriously though, were good. SB 20 covers user displays, monitors, and televisions.

    Now if you can find a way to insinuate the IICE Air into the European Union (EU) RoHS requirements under the Test Equipment classification, I'll send you one free. :freaky


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  17. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    I know. They sure livened up Marketing!


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  18. Blind Warrior

    Blind Warrior Lost in the Ozone

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    I have a question that I know has been asked before (because I managed to read ~50 of the posts) but for which I have not seen an answer.

    As I understand the settings:

    -10 is really cold.
    -20 is normal
    -30 is really hot.

    You guys are engineers, so maybe you can understand that while my thermometer comes with degrees F and C, it does not have the subjective scale you guys are using. Right now in Fairbanks, 'really cold' means something different than in Long Beach, where it has been really cold for the last couple of days. Could you offer some more specific guidelines, such as temperature ranges? I realize that the ranges may overlap, but they would still be useful as a guide.

    Also, if the 4th position is neutral, does this correspond to a 'really, really cold' setting? And what would that be on my thermometer?

    I plan to use this doo hickey on a '09 GS in Mexico over the holidays and expect to see temperatures ranging from the high 20's to the high 90's F. I have the on board computer and was hoping to use that as guide to the setting. Many apologies if this has been covered in one of the links on the 1st page. I believe I read them all but could not find this answer.

    Thank you!
  19. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    Hold on BW, let me ask Marketing, they're in control of all things subjective.


    I think the temperature chart in the quote is backwards isn't it JJ?

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  20. Blind Warrior

    Blind Warrior Lost in the Ozone

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    Duh! Yes the terms 'hot' and 'cold' are reversed in my post!
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