How to turn?

Discussion in 'Trials' started by SCExpat, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    I'm confused by this post.

    The technique IS very much right, your implementation might be lacking? if you get your weight right, I can turn full lock and still turn. Yes there is more than one way to accomplish this, however "THE OTHER" is an advanced way, something that you learn in the next lesson usually.

    What I see happen is people want to skip the "dribbling" practice, they think they are too good at it or that it is unnecessary.

    I and 50,000 people over the past 100 years of trials, would tell those people they are dead wrong. Sure, you'll (not you necessarily DrKyak, but other who read this reply) can and will argue from the beginners class for several years, then about 12 years into trials will post "why didnt anyone tell me" or "I just discovered something".

    Mark my words... BASICS BASICS BASICS, TURN, TURN, TURNS & BALANCE, then THROTTLE CONTROL, then MORE TURNING, MORE BALANCE, then another skill is mixed into the tests... Everything to do with trials starts and ends with BALANCE and the ABILITY to make a turn. Sometimes that turn is in MID AIR (master & Pros), some times is on flat ground (novice).

    Do the work, Nadia Comăneci didnt do what she did in her sport years ago by NOT learning and mastering the basics...
    #21
  2. darmst6829

    darmst6829 Been here awhile

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    #22
  3. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    #23
  4. Adventureridersinter

    Adventureridersinter Lorne Banks

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    If you are going slow you will want to look were the bike is going! Get your eyes looking ahead of the bike. Lean the bike by pushing into the tank with your knee so if you are turning left push your right knee into the tank and off set you ass to the right side of the seat as a counter balance. By doing this you can lean the bike but still keep your head, shoulders over the center of the bike. As the bars turn left or right you move you bottom to the oposite side of the bike while turning.

    While you are doing this exercise work on clutch, rear brake and throttle control because if you do not have these novice moves mastered first you will struggle with riding any exercise or obsticle.

    If you need more info contact me at

    www.adverntureridersinternational.com

    cheers

    Lorne Banks
    Factory Certified BMW Instructor
    #24
  5. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Lorne, I think you are telling people dead wrong technique. The only knee that should ever be near the tank, would be the inside one, because you are leaning the bike over that way.

    Look at the video this post is talking about, you keep your knees bent and "bow legged" away from the tank, yet this leaves room for the bike to lean one way or the other. Another remark I want to correct is, you dont stick your butt out, you take your shoulders (with your butt directly under them) and move the body to shift the weight to the pegs. It is like a dance, not like some weird yoga like position.

    not sticking things out extreme, makes it easier to switch sides or position, as well...
    #25
  6. SCExpat

    SCExpat Ex-expat

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    Wow. Thanks for all the replies. A lot more to this than I expected including very different points of view. One thing that has helped me a lot here is when it was pointed out that the demonstration was "exaggerated". I was trying to do all turns this way and kept noticing that other, much better riders did not make the exaggerated moves for turns. This may be why I am still sore 3 days after my first practice session. Sting32 Thanks for the clear explanations I think I have a much better understanding and idea of how to practice turns now. I am going to just start with leaning the bike a bit and then work my way up to the exaggerated lean angles.

    PS: Sorry for the late reply....did not mean to start a thread and abandon it but I have been busy acting as tour guide for visiting in-laws.
    #26
  7. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    One reason for not seeing the exaggerated stance more is that good riders can get away with NOT doing it because they make up for it on EASY TO THEM sections by subtle body movement, and feel of controls that novices dont have. (any many will never have)

    However, when you see them in a DIFFICULT FOR THEM section - you will find you see alot more exaggerated position. However - it may happen very quickly. Ask them to ride an easy off camber section one handed - and you'll see the exaggerated position as well.

    My personal approach is to practice the exaggerated methods and then forget everything in competition, :beer I find figure 8's on a steep, loose off camber keeps me honest.

    Most of the really good riders will mirror what Sting said - practice the basics and work the foundation 1st.
    #27
  8. RideAbout

    RideAbout Mentally Retired

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    Ditto. Amazed at how much OT taught me in a short period of time.

    I had ridden/raced for 25 years in every genre of motorcycling... I thought I knew how to ride. Then I tried my hand at OT! It teachs (forces) you to learn everything about how a motorcycle reacts to the terrian and your input. This "re-learning" affected how I ride all bikes now... whether street or dirt.

    I have been out of OT for almost 20 years now, but that training has stuck with me.
    #28
  9. motojunky

    motojunky Professional Idiot

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    Lorne,

    If you're going to barge into a group with a first post hocking your wares (training courses), I'd suggest having a relevant answer and maybe even typing the link correctly.

    :spam:spam:spam
    #29
  10. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Thank you laser for typing what I * should have said* to begin with. you summed it up perfectly! And much more eloquent.

    Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

    I'm not trying to make anyone mad. darmst6829, let me know that he was NOT a "new to trials" rider, to which I publicly announce, well you and I can disagree anytime, :D I dont hold ill will to almost anyone, especially fellow trials riders. Ill save ill will for certain political people and stuff.

    Darm6829 says that he's riding more twin shock pre 70's bikes, nowdays. This honestly threw me a little. On the no stop type events on bikes (that are run without clutches) it seems to me (from my testing and experience) that he'd of chimed in agreeing that the technique, is used in every section... But no. :huh

    But again I still believe the video of the turning techniques from TTC, were VERY exaggerated, for the point of showing you how it is done. I have shown all the riders I get started, almost the same thing, being extreme... This has been done for years, before I even knew the video existed. Everything we "train" with is like Laser17 (and others and thank you BTW) kind of agreed.

    But also know this, IMHO when teaching someone new to this sport, AND because IMHO balancing in a turn is so fundamental, I have always felt you have them do it in a little "exaggerated form."

    Why? what I find is after the "instruction" session, ALWAYS, they tend to relax back by at least 50%. This way, that 1/2 effort is still pretty good form. The next ride time, they will be down to 12%, and you have to make them re-emphasize the position again. Eventually the "natural" look is where they finally end up, that is if you are watchful trainer.

    Plus, there are a hundred little tidbits and nuances that go along with this training technique, that I don't have time to write that novel right now, let alone feel I can relate it with a keyboard. But not completely unlike teaching someone how to write, physical things are something you get the body to get a "muscle memory" of. Remember kindergarten and writing your first "A"? they were 1-1.5 inches tall. you dont write that big now do you? I know my teacher is spinning in her grave, I write like a doctor, you cant even read what I print anymore, hardly unless I am being really careful. Same thing happens to trials riding and your techniques, if you dont become aware that it does happen.

    Exaggerating the position feels very awkward at 1st, but like I said they relax a bit, and they have that image in their mind that they look like the video, we all know they dont look like the video...

    hope that helps a little.
    #30
  11. Ccino

    Ccino Adventurer

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    My new motto:

    Don't just practice until you can do it right,

    practice until you can't do it wrong.
    #31
  12. Mike D

    Mike D Corporate Cog

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    My wife is an equestrian trainer and has a saying for her students:

    "Practice doesn't make perfect; Perfect practice makes perfect"

    I always try to keep proper technique in mind when riding my backyard sections, not just simply cleaning them. Simply cleaning them leads to bad habits.
    #32
  13. AteamNM

    AteamNM Wonna Be ADVrider

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    Three cleans in a row, then ride it backwards. :deal
    #33
  14. SCExpat

    SCExpat Ex-expat

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    This is what my coaches/mentors have me do. Then they find another section to challenge me. So far, this is a great way to learn. Then I go back and do the sections I cleaned 3 times and wonder why I had such a hard time doing it. :norton
    #34
  15. mmanniko

    mmanniko Adventurer

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    Exaggerated body motion is important, if anything unexpectedly happens your body is in a position to handle it. If you do the minimum it works until something comes up. That never happens in Moto Trials. :-)

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
    #35
  16. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Here I thought it had to do with a string, an eye ball, the ute cup, and being mental. Thanks for the tips from Colorado!:evil

    Found IT!! http://www.gasgas.com/Pages/Manniko/Manniko-mental.html
    #36
  17. thegraydog

    thegraydog 2 wheels X 6 ways

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    Today I rode the new pile of gravel in the driveway. It is fiendishly hard to ride figure 8s on a pile of gravel. Once in awhile it felt like a floater turn -- big weight shift out and back, the front wheel didn't plow and the rear didn't step out. The videos and the words in this thread aren't really corresponding with the motion on the bike, but I'm obsessed. I'm taking a LOT of points at Ute Cup (and anywhere else) over this issue, so it's what I should be working at.

    Thanks to Mr Manniko and to Lineaway for linking the Inner Game coaching. I love this odd pastime.
    #37
  18. neilking

    neilking Been here awhile

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    On flat ground with good traction it is un-necessary. but I forget to do it at times when it is necessary.
    #38
  19. AteamNM

    AteamNM Wonna Be ADVrider

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    Come on Bob, we are too lazy to link shit.

    By the doctor himself.

    Hey was it Waltz W. that had the bit about a trials course/sections should be like a well written opera?

    This and yes thank your dad and you Mark.

    Come See the Mental Side of Trials

    By Mark Manniko

    After the 20 years I’ve been competing in trials, I have come to the conclusion that although trials takes a fair amount of muscle and physical finesse, trials is mostly a mental sport. I’m not talking about intelligence here. After all, how many brain surgeons do you see hitting the rocks every weekend? The mental side that I’m talking about is being able to ride at your best any time you want.


    Trials is uniquely challenging mentally because it requires razor-sharp focus an average of 45 times over a period of four to eight hours. To pay attention to the mental side of trials is to perform or ride as close to your absolute best on a consistent basis. I like to call this your performance state of mind, or PSM for short. As you can imagine, top athletes share several characteristics of PSM including a positive state of mind and being relaxed, focused, energetic and confident.


    I’d bet that most of you have had a brush with PSM -- when you cleaned a section that you thought was way out of your league and it seemed easy and relatively effortless. Even if you have not yet experienced PSM in your trials riding, you’ve likely experienced it somewhere else in your life.


    The most common characteristic of PSM is having a positive attitude. Actually, the process begins before your engine is even running – when you walk the section. If while you’re looking over the sections you think “I hope I don’t hit that tree,” there’s a good chance that’s exactly what you’re going to do. This is the case because we tend to do whatever is on our mind, which is perhaps the single most revealing aspect of the human psyche.


    On the other hand, there are many distractions that when not dealt with properly can lead to poor performance -- the weather, the sections, the observers and your competitors. In order to ride your best, you can’t let these distractions affect you. The most effective way to deal with these distractions is ask yourself “who is in control of my mind, the distractions or me?” If you answered “me,” you’re on the right track. Understand that controlling your thoughts is the first step towards achieving your PSM.


    There are some athletes who use anger or pain to help them focus, both of which present many problems. Anger releases toxic chemicals that are harmful too the body, while pain has obvious drawbacks that we’ve all felt. To use any negative motivation is much to harmful and it quickly takes the fun out of competing. The motivation needs to be positive. Before some of my best rides, while I was preparing to ride a difficult section, my thoughts were “I’m going to be the first one up that rock,” or “I’m going to show these guys how this section is supposed to be ridden.”


    There is a unique relationship between your mindset and your eyes. If you’ve been reading the articles about the eyes in this publication then you already have the background. The bottom line is that your state of mind changes your vision, which changes your timing and accuracy. Not all people are the same. Some need to be psyched up, while others need to relax in order to perform at their best.


    A quick test to find out what you need requires a 10ft piece of string and three beads or something similar that can be attached to the string . Tie one end of the string to something at eye level, place the first bead about 1ft from the end you will be holding , the next in the middle, the last almost at the end of the string. Hold the string to the center of your nose tight enough so that the string is almost a straight line to the attached end. First look at the bead closest to you, you should see two strings meeting at the bead, if you only see one string you are not using both eyes and depth perception will be inaccurate. For most people the strings will meet at the first bead. Move your eyes to the middle bead, again you should see two strings meeting at the bead. This is usually where some inconsistencies start showing up. If the strings meet before the bead you will need to relax to have your timing perfect. If the strings meet after the bead then you need to be psyched up to have your timing perfect. Try this with the last bead also, whichever tendency you have will be magnified.


    The majority of athletes need to be psyched-up to perform at their best. The problem for trials riders is that we must do this numerous times during the competition and overall focus must be maintained throughout the event. It’s impossible to remain focused for six to eight hours at the highest mental level. This demonstrates the importance of having an ability to turn your PSM on and off.


    Now that you’ve remembered a time when you were using your PSM, I’ll provide you with some techniques that will help you turn it on and off at will. The first technique is visualization. When used properly, visualization enables you to ride the section in your mind before you ever put your bike in the section. There are two methods of visualization. The first is to watch yourself riding perfectly through the section, as if you were watching a movie (third person). I believe the more effective visualization method is to actually feel yourself riding the section (in the first person), rather than taking the spectator’s view. While you’re visualizing, you should be as detailed as possible – watch your front wheel lift off the ground, feel your body moving, the more complete the better. You can practice this now by remembering a section from the last trial in which you competed. Ride this section in your mind until you have it right.


    Studies show that the body does not know the difference between the electrical impulses generated by the brain over actually doing the activity. Think of the advantages you’ll have once you’ve mastered this technique -- essentially, you get to ride the section perfectly before it counts. Of course this doesn’t take the place of actual practice but it’s amazing how much better you can become when you combine the two on a consistent basis.


    When you are riding the sections it is important to let your body do what you just accomplished in your visualization. If you are thinking and talking yourself through the section, you are slowing your body’s performance. When you are riding on auto pilot you are in what athletes call the “Zone”. When you are in the “Zone” you are completely in your PSM.



    Another powerful technique that helps to control your negative thinking and put you in your PSM is affirmations. The theory behind affirmations is that if you’ve told yourself you hate riding logs and have never been able to ride them, it becomes the truth. This commonly begins if you have a problem with certain techniques or terrain. Instead of deciding in advance that you can’t ride a certain obstacle just tell yourself that you do not know how yet and go about learning how. You can usually watch someone who is good at the technique, even a video, and use their ride as a guide for your visualization. Now you know how to ride it.


    Affirmations are similar to visualization in that your subconscious is unable to determine the difference between a lie and the truth. If you choose your weakest technique and create a positive statement such as ”I love slippery roots” and repeat it to yourself somewhere around fifty times a day, you’ll begin to notice that you actually start to enjoy riding slippery roots within a couple of weeks. What you’re doing is reprogramming your mind with thoughts that will help you, instead of what may be hindering you. Again, affirmations aren’t going to replace practice but they will help eliminate weaknesses.


    After you’ve ridden a section it’s important to analyze what did and didn’t work. Repeat your visualization of the perfect ride, so that it’s the last thing you remember about the section. Then clear your mind completely and move on to the next section. Use the time between sections to relax, both mentally and physically. You will not perform at your best if you carry mental baggage from section to section.


    Fear is a vital part of our psyche. The problem with fear occurs when we are unable to control it and it keeps us from performing at our best. Fear is so detrimental because it constricts the body and, for many people, generates thoughts of all of the bad things that could happen. Riders at all levels experience fear. The better riders have learned to control their fear and attack the obstacle with 100 percent confidence. As we learned earlier, we tend to do what is on our minds. I am not saying that you can point your bike at a 10-foot vertical wall and turn off your fear and make it, that’s stupidity. But, if something scares you that’s just above your comfort zone and you have the skills to attempt it, you have to turn your fear off and ride with 100 percent confidence.


    Trials riders often neglect nutrition. The most important thing mentally and physically before and during competition is to keep your blood sugar levels at a high, consistent level. The first organ to suffer when the blood sugar level drops is the brain. The ultra-endurance athletes have found that the first sign of low blood sugar is a lack of concentration, not feeling tired. Because trials is such an intense mental sport, it’s essential to put nutrition on top of your list to remain at your best over the entire event.


    There are many different theories about nutrition, but most athletes have found that it’s beneficial to have a diet that’s made up largely of complex carbohydrates. This also applies during the competition. If you just drink just water without consuming food, you’ll start running out of energy after about one hour. There are different ways of keeping your blood sugar level up. Some people prefer snacks of fruit or energy bars along with water. Other people use sport drinks with an occasional snack. It’s important to determine what works best for you. A note on sport drinks -- not many are designed for long duration sports like trials. It is worth the extra time to find one that will work for the whole day. In any case, it’s critical to keep yourself hydrated during the entire competition. Begin the event hydrated and drink about 8oz every 15-20 minutes throughout the event. This is the most the body can use during intense physical activity. If you wait until you’re thirsty, it’s too late.


    There is a wealth of knowledge about sports psychology and nutrition available in most bookstores. I have presented the techniques and methods I have found to work best for me, but everyone is different. I would encourage you to read up on this subject and supplement this with your own experimentation and research. Not only will you have a better time, you’ll begin to notice a significant improvement in your riding.


    to notice a significant improvement in your riding.
    #39
  20. dmay

    dmay Been here awhile

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    Man,This is the best thing I've read on riding trials,injured myself last weekend exactly because of no visualization before riding a wall climb. I will start doing this immediately upon getting back on the bike. I will start small in my backyard and it will become the way I ride from now on(repeat to myself until it becomes the truth!)

    Thank you for posting this!:clap
    #40