I have a couple of Questions....

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by prittner, Jun 9, 2010.

  1. prittner

    prittner Adventurer

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    I picked up my 800GS on Good Friday, I have about 2700 mi. on it now.

    Last week I went to start it and it was running on one cylinder for about 30 sec. then the other picked up and went, this has only happened once.

    Do you guys think this will show up on the dealers computer check?

    The other question is the idle on my bike seems to "surge" or sort of miss every once in a while, is this the "nature of the Beast" or should the idle be smooth and even?

    Thanks for your time!

    Rob
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  2. prittner

    prittner Adventurer

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    Joel?
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  3. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    You might have the fuel/injector issue. There is a fairly lengthy thread here about it. I had it, and now alternate between adding BMW Techron fuel additive and Seafoam every third fueling. The shop replaced the injectors because I was having starting issues. oclv
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  4. Simonf8gs

    Simonf8gs Adventurer

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    My idle is nice and smooth. I would go talk to your dealer if I was you just to be sure. They wont need a comptuter to notice something is wrong if it run on only 1 cylinder or purge and they should take care of it I would think.
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  5. DolphinJohn

    DolphinJohn Caveman

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    Sometimes when I start my bike after extended down time it makes a holy racket like there's no oil in it, but only lasts a few seconds. Joel says that's normal.
    Also, before I "lost" my charcoal canister my idle would sometimes be very rough and even stall on occasion.
    #5
  6. GeorgeinVA

    GeorgeinVA Beemers Uber Alles

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    Sounds like a fuel injector sticking. If it is the computer will not show it, the diagnostic computer will only shows faults if the signals are not sent to the injectors.
    #6
  7. prittner

    prittner Adventurer

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    Thanks guys,

    I will ask them about it when i have my tank changed out next week.
    Rob
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  8. hungrosity

    hungrosity Oh! So I'm the Ass

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    Pritt,

    I had the very same thing happen to me last week on an extended ride. I did not have the "missing" while riding but had a rough start (multiple tries) at one stop and a "no go" the next morning. Depleted the battery and had to try to jump start it, when it finally got going, was rough and most definitely on one cylinder, finally smoothing out. No problems after that. Talked to the dealer/service guy who said they routinely see this problem in the Rocky Mountain region due to poor quality of gas here (often up to 30% of the bad stuff that is supposed to be less than 10%). Interestingly enough, he said that injectors are only covered under warranty if the % of bad stuff is under 10%. However, because of the number of cases in this region, BMW has offered a "goodwill" service to the customers here and not to worry. If there is damage done, it will be replaced.

    I am sure there is a lengthy discussion on this somewhere, but I thought I would just answer you here. An on the road solution is to keep a long screwdriver handy to knock the injectors/lines a bit if it doesn't want to start. A long term solution is to add a fuel cleaner with Techron as mentioned in this thread. The BMW stuff is good but you can also buy the Chevron stuff at Auto Zone (or insert car parts outlet here......) for about half the price. The Chevron stuff you only have to put in about every 3k miles or so. Just make sure it has Techron as it is supposed to coat the lines and injectors not allowing gunk to build up. The dose is 1 ounce of fuel cleaner/Techron per gallons your tank holds, which in our case is 4.2......... so 4 ounces of the stuff.

    My two cents..... hope it helps shed some light.

    Hungrosity
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  9. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    No the BMW diagnostic computer is not likely to detect this.

    I agree it sounds like a stuck or plugged fuel injector.

    It is true that most injector failures are caused by bad gasoline. Bad gas also causes many fuel pump and fuel level sensor failures. This isn't just a BMW thing, I used to work for Volvo and they are spending $5,000,000 a year replacing components damaged by bad fuel in the USA. I'm also on friendly terms with a Suzuki service manager and they are seeing it as well.

    It is also true that damage caused by bad fuel is not technically a warranty item. Dispensing gasoline that has excessive alcohol content, lacks required buffers, or contains water is against USA federal law and EPA regulations. Any service station that can be proven to be dispensing bad fuel is 100% financially responsible for any damages their fuel causes to your vehicle, and up for fines from state and federal government. At this time at least, BMW is usually good-willing damages caused by bad fuel and so are most other manufactures but this could change.

    Excessive Alcohol content alone is not injuries to metal parts such as fuel injectors, it simply damages certain rubbers in the system such as fuel hoses and reduces the energy content of the fuel so it's a rip off.

    Buffering additives are required in all ethanol / gasoline fuel mixes. If additives are not present in the proper ratio, all sorts of damage can occur.

    Water is the biggest issue. In the old days on non alcohol containing fuel any water would sit on the lowest point of your fuel tank and never mix with the gas. If you got enough water, some might get sucked by your fuel pump as everything sloshed around, and this would cause some occasional miss fires but nothing worse.

    Alcohol is hygroscopic, meaning it will readily bond with water. This is no big deal if the alcohol in question is isopropyl, such as is in many fuel additives, but the alcohol in USA fuel is ethanol and also contains esthers.

    I am not a chemist, but the short is: when modern ethanol containing fuel is contaminated with water, a chemical reaction occurs between the ethanol, water, sulfur, and a few other things in fuel and makes an incredibly corrosive mix that will pit and corrode even stainless steel.

    If additives are insufficient or alcohol content is excessive the problem is compounded.


    Gasoline prices are way up, legally required additives are expensive, by comparison ethanol is cheaper right now.

    Criminal fraud is occurring because it pays.

    Lastly service stations are often in poor repair and water is getting into tanks through leaks and vents with non functional equipment to prevent.


    End of vague but woordy explanation.



    The additive "Techron concentrate fuel system cleaner" will prevent damage from most bad fuel. I am using one ounce per gallon of fuel in my tank once every 1,500 miles.

    BMW "fuel system cleaner+" is the same thing in the same bottle that has bmw printed on it.

    "techron fuel injector cleaner" is NOT the same thing and will not work to prevent alcohol damage.

    Good luck
    #9
  10. prittner

    prittner Adventurer

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    Joel
    Thanks for the info.

    I have been using Shell 93 octane at 2 different stations Here in Carbondale Il.

    For the past 4 yrs I have run this gas in an 06 Klr 650, 08 vstrom, 2 Drz 400s, an xt250, 09 kawasaki versys, and a 09 "Ninget" 250 ( the wifes):D.

    havent had any problems yet.......but it is possible I could have gotten bad gas.

    When I get my new "uncracked" tank on wed. Ill have Grass Roots check it out!

    Thanks Joel & Crew!!!!:clap
    #10
  11. EnderTheX

    EnderTheX Dirt Rider

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    This is one reason why when you finish a hard drink such as a jack on the rocks at a bar don't let the bartender take it away immediately, there is plenty of alcohol stuck to the ice! Let it melt a minute and take the last sip...

    Cheers! :freaky
    #11
  12. prittner

    prittner Adventurer

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    :evil+++
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  13. GeorgeinVA

    GeorgeinVA Beemers Uber Alles

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    It would seem to me that designing parts that fail when exposed to normal operating chemicals, in this case "bad US gas" and then telling customers to go screw is at least bad for business. As en ex-BMW dealer tech I can tell you that BMW will blame anyone but them selves. They have even tried the "bad US gas" line on bike that had bad fuel strips when uncreated that is to say have never had US gas in them! To me this would constitute fraud. If it was the gas then they ALL would do it. It must be a variation in manufacturing that is causing the problem.
    #13
  14. Spinalcracker

    Spinalcracker former redriderofma

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    Would the fuel system cleaner be good for cars too?
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  15. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    Cool, you know how to use the quote feature, can you read the other paragraphs?

    Gasoline / ethinol mix that is water contaminated is NOT a "normal chemical". It is a mixture that is illegal to sell.

    It is not common for a station to have a level of water contamination, but happens often enough for all service departments to be seeing a steady trickle of this sort of problem.

    The sort of damage water contaminated gas / ethinol is easy to spot, and if the same fuel that caused the damage is still in the tank, it's easy to prove with commercially available test kits.
    #15
  16. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    yep, and many auto manufactures reccomend and sell techron concentrate in their own relabeled packages.

    I can't find it now, but there was a news article somewhere about Ford suing the EPA to get them to start enforcing fuel additive, alcohol and water content requirements. If someone finds that or any other articles about fuel that does not meet legal requirements, please post links :)
    #16
  17. prittner

    prittner Adventurer

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    Update....

    I got my new tank installed Wed. the shop plugged my bike into the computer.

    I had 8 intermittent faults on an O2 sensor, they swapped it out for a new one that fixed that.

    My rough idle problem however is still an issue, I have also found a place in the throttle range, open just above idle that if held in this position the bike
    will run so rough that it will die.

    Past this spot the motor picks up and is fine.

    I'm now wondering if the low rough idle and this "Rough Spot" are related since they are so close in the throttle travel.

    Any thoughts?

    Rob
    #17
  18. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    O2 sensor codes are the most worthless codes a bmw can generate, except for perhaps low voltage codes.

    Problem with O2 sensor codes is the computer will interpret a correctly functioning O2 sensor that is giving unusual readings DUE to something in the fuel injection or ignition system being broken, as a bad O2 sensor.

    If you are talking about the bike running rough and almost dyeing if you twist the throttle just a billionth of a degree open from idle, pretty much all fuel injected bikes will do that but it is such a tiny amount above idle that not many people ever notice it. This is an ambiguous description on my part, I'd have to feel it to see if it is worse on your bike.

    My guess remains you have a plugging or sticking fuel injector.

    Have you tried Techron concentrate fuel system cleaner yet? 1 oz per gallon of fuel.

    If your feeling ambitious, pull the plastic, battery and air box, then remove your spark plugs. If one is significantly darker then the other, there is almost no question that you have a plugging or sticking fuel injector.

    If so, take pictures and show them to your dealer along with your suspicion. Have them file a puma and they will most likely be instructed to replace your injectors.

    Next most likely is a failing fuel pump.

    I have never seen fuel pump electronics cause these symptoms.

    The fuel pressure regulator, sensor, crank sensor, or an ignition coil could also do this but these are incredibly rare. The BMS-K could do this but it's rare as well.

    P.S. are your battery terminals tight? This can cause every symptom under the sun as well as destroy the BMS-k and every other computer in the bike. the way to check is to try and wiggle the battery leads with firm thumg pressure, if they turn the terminals were loose.

    Good luck
    #18
  19. prittner

    prittner Adventurer

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    Joel

    Thanks for the info, I have run 4 tank fulls treated with techron through the bike.

    Your description of the throttle position where this is happening is right on!

    I may have the shop check the plugs at my 6000 mi check.

    Battery terminals are tight I checked them before they went into the shop.

    Thanks again!

    Rob
    #19