Idaho Star-Brake before turn vs Trailbraking

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IdahoRenegade, Jul 23, 2014.

  1. Human Ills

    Human Ills Useful Idiom

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    You live in a little bubble, don't you?:norton
  2. catweasel67

    catweasel67 RD04

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    :rofl
  3. Human Ills

    Human Ills Useful Idiom

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    Fret not, I'll not make the effort to see either his or your posts:lol3
  4. steve68steve

    steve68steve Long timer

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    This is the thing that disappoints me most about this thread:

    When you talk about braking in a curve, many assume you mean trail braking, so they assume you're advocating coming into a corner FAST and on the brakes HARD, then criticize the terrible suggestion you're not making (that's a strawman, no one has advocated speeding in and relying on braking at entry to adjust speed).

    If you can get the conversation to actual braking (not trailing off brakes at entry), then they assume you mean SLAMMING on the brakes irresponsibly, inviting a crash, so they criticize your terrible thinking again (altho that's another strawman). Alternately, they may put the bike at extreme lean angles, high speed, or riding over banana peels... whatever it takes for their brain to maintain that the idea is outrageous.

    If you talk about a technique that CAN BE or IS used at the track, it's assumed that means you're advocating riding the street as if it were a closed track at 99% of performance. Again, criticisms abound for something you're not talking about, but rather someone's hyperbolic misunderstanding (yet another strawman).

    IMO, every time someone says (or thinks), "So, basically, you're saying...." what follows is a hyperbole or strawman that has little to do with what you've actually said.
    I advocate teaching noobs that braking is a valuable skill to learn, but it has traction limitations. Some people don't agree with that.
    ...So what they're basically saying is they think we should remove the brakes from beginning rider's bike before letting them on the street. (See how stupid that is? - and yet that's what this thread is laden with).

    To me it looks like "don't touch the brakes leaned" is so deeply ingrained in some that they can't even entertain a conversation about it without having all their mental bells and whistles going off. ...a symptom of the problem with MSF training IMO.
  5. henshao

    henshao Bained

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    Everything in moderation; even without using the brakes, there is engine braking to consider especially in the lower gears.
  6. Human Ills

    Human Ills Useful Idiom

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    I see it the same exact way steve. It is impossible to have a reasonable conversation in this environment. Good on you for seeing the rhetorical fallacies present.
  7. JohnCW

    JohnCW Long timer

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    +1
    Very well said Steve.
  8. Organic Mechanic

    Organic Mechanic Awesome sauce taster

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    hmmm....
  9. Organic Mechanic

    Organic Mechanic Awesome sauce taster

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    :deal
  10. Organic Mechanic

    Organic Mechanic Awesome sauce taster

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    [​IMG]
  11. JohnCW

    JohnCW Long timer

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    Others will see these purely negative personal comments as a good indicator of the originator's character. A person without the skills necessary to constructively and politely engage in the conversation.
  12. farmerstu

    farmerstu Been here awhile

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    this thread may put some light on the op question.
    Msf brc rcp omg wtf lol

    it is an excellent conversation with several MSF instructors posting thier thought. after reading that entire thread is seems evident to me that many,if not most people taking the MSF course have all the can do do master the basic skills being taught. adding more is asking a lot for the time alloted.
  13. ZiaThunder

    ZiaThunder Go big or go home

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    The new MSF BRC that is starting to roll out, no longer focuses on getting all your braking done while straight up and before you tip into the turn.

    Now as a RiderCoach, I liked since it meant less people falling down in class. However, as a road racer, I know it's just wrong. It took me years to over come the MSF teachings and to get faster on the race track. (thank you, YCRS).

    I have students that trail brake in class, if they are not a danger to themselves, I'll let it go and make sure that they are aware of what they are doing and how it can effect their traction. Now there are students who really have no business riding a MC, they are scary just trying to ride in a circle. The thought of them out on the street terrifies me. Some of them somehow manage to pass the tests even. :huh These student I don't want they trying to trail brake. They need more time on a bike and then they need to do something like the YCRS. If they continue to ride.

    That said; the current BRC should be enough to get someone started. It's not the best for everyone, and some people need to take it a few times to really get it. Hell, it's how I learned to ride. Took the class, bought a bike and rode 25K miles the first year. On the other hand I've had students who have taken the class 4x before passing. Even then they weren't comfortable with riding on the streets.

    What it all comes down to is that motorcycles aren't really for everyone.


  14. Rgconner

    Rgconner Long timer

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    The classes taken seem to be orientated to communiting/grocery getting maybe a little road trip, not pushing the bike. Practical riding skills.

    This technique definite rates as advanced skill set, probably taught in a specialized class.
  15. LittleRedToyota

    LittleRedToyota Yinzer

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    i still don't get how people think the need to brake in corners (however you get it done...trail braking or otherwise) on the street is an advanced skill.

    the street doesn't care if you are rossi or you are on your first ride ever. if something happens in a corner (kid runs out, animal runs out, car in front of you stops for no apparent reason, etc.), you are going to have to brake in a corner regardless of you experience level.

    while i would agree that it is better to teach braking in a straight line first, i completely disagree that anyone who cannot brake while cornering is actually ready to ride on the street. many people do get away with it...but only because they are lucky enough to not have the need to brake in a corner arise.

    for that reason, i think it is very good that the MSF is apparently (according to a post by a rider coach above) moving in that direction. the technique they taught in my MSF (ERC) course i took of first standing the bike up and then braking works OK on a parking lot course, but you may or may not have room to do it in a real world street corner.
  16. daveinva

    daveinva Been here awhile

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  17. Human Ills

    Human Ills Useful Idiom

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    It's funny, but I could swear an inmate was wishing for this just a couple days ago.

    "“The new ABS Pro still operates like any other ABS, by limiting brake pressure to avoid brake lock-up,” said Sergio. “ABS Pro further fine tunes the ABS response for a leaned over motorcycle, limiting initial pressure build up and smoothing out any abruptness in the braking maneuver.”"

    A system which dampens rider input, if I read that correctly.
  18. Rgconner

    Rgconner Long timer

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    Yep...

    "Crash by wire"
  19. steve68steve

    steve68steve Long timer

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    Wow. I wish you'd posted this on page 1 - it would have been a much better/different/shorter thread.

    This takes the teeth out of the "counter arguments" presented in this thread.
  20. Human Ills

    Human Ills Useful Idiom

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    I've not really observed the effect of introducing facts to a thread which you describe