"Idle no More" concerns

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Steve G., Jan 6, 2013.

  1. Dan Alexander

    Dan Alexander only happy when sad

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    This has bothered me since the Mohawk protests and bridge blocking in and around Montreal including Oka.

    They claim proudly 'this is our land' but it turns out the Mohawks actuall came from further south and wiped out the Abenaki and Adironndack tribes to claim the land as 'theirs'

    My attidute turned to one of ... you took it from them and unfortunately we took it from you ... fair's fair.

    Time to move on.
    #41
  2. aquadog

    aquadog Dude Buddha

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    Hi, Mark.

    Don't be taken in by the loveliness...or the supposed protection aspect, kind of thrown in for effect. Let's consider what she said:

    The meeting was between elected, representative aboriginal leaders and the leader of the country's government, but it was a failure because it wasn't between ALL native leaders (each band?!?), the federal government and the Governor General of Canada - you may not know, but the Governor General is a ceremonial position, which is kept around because we kind of like the Queen, but has no authority or much relevance at all. Shows up at parties. Not sure why they keep wanting the GG. Tradition, I guess.

    She states that aboriginal groups across the country are all different, have different concerns...so if Harper were to meet with all of them, how does anything get done, and in what time frame? Fifty years? Pretty silly. Most of the tone of this thread is, yeah, we're onside with helping, but you have to boil it down to something that can be dealt with. Then tell your leaders. Then we can get it done.

    She's unhappy that "nothing came of the meeting" because there weren't instant, tangible results. Like what? What expectations? Dumping money on the problem hasn't helped - and there are the problems mentioned, housing, water, education - but enough has been spent that they should have been resolved long since if the recipients of the money had used it for those purposes. See my earlier post regarding what happened in Kaschewan re: water.

    Very misleading, using the old threat that "the land will be sold to foreigners", i.e. current fear is the Chinese. Please. Not happening, and Harper made that clear. The last oil sands deal was one time, already in the works. The bogey man that bands will sell off reserve land is nonsense. The proposal is that they can lease to make revenue (as many successful bands do), but not sell. The problem is, if you refuse to move from the shores of James Bay nobody wants to lease (or buy) that land!

    She decries that this meeting will lead to more meetings, not action. Hey, that's how government works. How almost any transaction works. What does she think/want the government to do, since Idle hasn't stated any objectives except "fix our treaties". Maybe that's the part where the GG waves a wand.

    A lot of this is illustrating FN disatisfaction with their own leadership, who they put in power. Some, like Atleo, seem pretty common sense. He'll be gone soon.....

    Cute. Either not much in there, she's building a career, or she is just stirring the pot unproductively.

    At least you're where it's warm enough to ride. We had a record of +10.9, heading back to -30, it's a bit of an icy mess out there. And a snowfall warning now in effect! Only 2.5 months of winter left...
    #42
  3. RobbieO

    RobbieO Muskokatard

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    I'm sorry but I don't have time to read this..........

    As a self employed contractor, I have to go to WORK to pay for my food, water, livelihood and my TAXES.

    No one is giving me "handouts" to live.
    I had to pick up my life and MOVE to better my income...............
    #43
  4. G-Mac

    G-Mac Been here awhile

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    The last thing I worry about is my commute to work. Because I work and pay for my ride and whitey blacky reddy or browny we all are responsible for our own well being other than those who can't and then we help them.......not Keep helping them to the point they become dependent. Like a bear who is fed, doesn't bother trying to hunt any more.
    So your whitey doesn't give me hand outs anymore bullshit can suck it. TAKE RESPOSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF. The end result is we as in the Canadian people that work have paid enough!!
    IMHO
    #44
  5. newhoco

    newhoco stromnambulator

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    It is a horrible problem that must be overcome , we cannot allow a subset of our population to live in squalor and poverty .
    A significant part of the problem would seem to be in trying to reconcile the concept of aboriginal peoples " living off the land " in remote parts of our vast country , and the access to modern goods and services that only a metropolis can provide .
    The ancient model of inland tribes involved a nomadic lifestyle , moving with the herds , or seasons , giving rise to the notion of " stewardship of the land " , but actually it meant moving on when the resources of one area were depleted , ad infinitum . Of course , it also meant periodic famines , lower life expectancy ,child mortality ... all those things that Darwin would say are necessary mechanisms to promote survival of the fittest , and / or the checks and balances that keep all species in an ecosystem in equilibrium .
    Our modern system requires that those nomadic peoples be locked in one place forever , so they may be provided with the kind of infrastructure previously only available in a city : flush toilets , requiring sewage treatment systems ; running water piped into every home , requiring water purification plants ; permanent housing , with heat and all modern conveniences ; medical centers , staffed and equipped as well as any such centre in Toronto or North Bay ; schools , expected to meet standards of any in urban centres....
    History has proven that this is not a sustainable model , especially not if we also make every member of these communities a life-long welfare recipient , with no incentive to better their lot .
    Another important aspect to consider , and not given any airtime , is the massive bureaucracy that is IANA . Huge buildings , staffed with legions of self serving drones who benefit from the current system , indeed they created the system for their own benefit . Indeed , I would wager that there are more " whites" overseeing the system , than there are aboriginals , and those " whites " enjoy a far higher standard of living than not only the aboriginal peoples , but also the average Canadian taxpayer . The massive cost of this bureaucracy is never included in the calculation of the amount expended on the individual bands - a taxpayer revolt would ensue.
    A way forward ? I believe only assimilation will work . Just as we have thriving Sikh , or Hindu , or Filipino , or Italian individuals and communities throughout our nation , so should we have Aboriginal peoples , in our schools and workplaces , improving our multi-cultural society with their presence . Just as every other Hyphenated - Canadian ,
    they should own property , vote , pay taxes , keep their cultural traditions alive , return to their ancestral lands as often as they can afford to , in short - to be Canadian citizens .
    #45
  6. G-Mac

    G-Mac Been here awhile

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    What allowing them to live in the Squaller. They choose to stay there. Their ancestors would have moved so to say they are living off the land is bullshit. Their ancestors were a lot smarter and would move and adapt. They aren't following their own culture one of pride sustainability and perseverance. Again take responsibility for your self. I work with and have known several native and minority people. And from their mouths you must move on and use the tools and opportunities given and allotted to them. We need to get rid of their leaders or teach their leaders how to better themselves knowledge through education not throw money at them.
    Rant done
    #46
  7. aquadog

    aquadog Dude Buddha

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    If another government dumped $100,000,000 on a band I was Chief of, over just a few years, nobody would live in squalor unless they wanted to...but sometimes you do have to be a relative of the clan in power. Perhaps the biggest mistake the feds have made is to trust the various band councils to administer large amounts of money in a reasonable, sophisticated and equitable way, without sufficient oversight.

    Earlier comment about a huge federal bureaucracy benefiting from this? Reportedly only 16% of the budget goes to administration, the rest goes to the bands. I'm sure there's waste, and you could get that down to 10%, but still not awful. Or maybe it's just so much money, they can't beef it up beyond 16%....
    #47
  8. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    You sir, have summed this entire mess very accurately. Unfortunately, this truth of the situation would be quickly dismissed by the massive beaucracy and the aboriginals in one giant landslide of rejection.

    We the taxpayer, are truly fucked.
    #48
  9. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    My original worries that this movement would quickly be taken over by anyone and everyone with a bitch against the 'system' has been confirmed. Wednesday there was the usual group who have taken over this peacefull movement, again with no one voice, just many voices with many bitches.
    The taxpayers really are going to get this one up the rear. Lets see, no more resource extraction, ANYWHERE,,,,,,,,everyone wants more services from government, no-one wants to pay for anything. Geez!
    #49
  10. Commuter Boy

    Commuter Boy Long timer

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    Finally, you're starting to get it. The real value of Idle No More is that at last the grassroots of the First Nations have had enough. Enough with their Chiefs, enough with the Federal government and their bureaucrats mismanaging them, wasting money and not getting results, enough of being ignored.

    They WANT us to call our politicians and tell them to change things. They WANT their Chiefs to realize they might not get elected unless they get off the gravy train and start making progressive change. They WANT things to be made public, so that political pressure can be brought to bear on a broken system.

    I would expect you'd be the first person to be out there with them shouting that things are broken, and need to change. :lol3

    Seriously though, we're getting to a point where the FN are now moving past the last hundred years of abuse, of being marginalized, and separated from Canadian society. That's a GOOD THING. Not all of them are eloquent speakers or statesmen who can make it clear how to fix things, but the frustration with the status quo is clear.
    #50
  11. Dan Alexander

    Dan Alexander only happy when sad

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    Think they will ever accept the fact that they need to get off reserves and join main stream society as their only real path to the future?
    #51
  12. RobbieO

    RobbieO Muskokatard

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    Nope........
    #52
  13. Moving Pictures

    Moving Pictures Sir Loin of Biff

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    Except your fiscal conservative has increased the debt by 25 per cent, and outspent any other regime, period, while running roughshod over the environment, ignoring the law (robocalls, conflict of interest) and who knows what else.

    History says the Conservatives fuck up the country's finances, bag the economy into the toilet with screwed up, flawed, Keynsian economic thinking (despite multiple instances of such action being a waste of taxpayer cash).... then the Liberals get in and fix the mess.

    History is repeating itself. I just hope there's enough of Canada left for the Liberals to fix in 2.5 or 6.5 years, assuming Herr Harper actually heeds the fixed election date law, given he broke that one already ...
    #53
  14. edwin

    edwin Been here awhile

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    main problem? racism....
    when you see someone who is native what do you think about that person....?
    exactly.
    that needs to change...but how??
    do you think it feels nice to be suspect alll your life?
    do you feel this being white and not a visable minority (or aboriginal)?
    doubt it...never crossed your mind...did it.

    look inside yourself.....that is where the change needs to start.

    all the best to everyone...
    #54
  15. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    Yawn....

    See, I bespise all polititians. And despise politics. It seems you do genuinely prefer a certain type of juice,,,,,,how else could you think the 'fence sitters' could be any better,,,during the biggest financial upheaval in the history of the human race. Seriously?
    #55
  16. McJamie

    McJamie STROMINATOR

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    A couple of things occured to me.
    Has there ever been an aboriginal or native issue that has been completely resolved to the satisfaction of all parties involved? None that I am aware of.
    Also, it's pretty clear that there is corruption and mis-managment from the top government office all the way down the food chain, right to the people on the reserve. ALOT of people need to go. The easy thing would be to select a group from outside the government and outside of the native bands & chiefs to monitor all this. That have no bias or connection either way. I think a couple of steps away from the entire system, might give a clearer view. A bit idealistic I know, but it would probably work.
    The other thing I'm quite tired of is hearing "We want, We want, we want", from all sides. Lets hear " we have an idea that might fix this problem".
    I was taught a couple of things when I was young; One, sentences don't start with "I want", and second, if you can't fix something, shut up about it, until you have a solution.
    There is no reason, even in a poor economy, for people to be living in the conditions that some of these people do. If I had no way to support my family where I lived, I would move to where I could. I know many people in the last few years that have had to do just that. Even if that meant leaving family and nieghbourhoods that had been familliar and comfortable for generations. You find a solution, and you carry it through, you don't wait for someone to hand you one.
    #56
  17. Brunssd

    Brunssd Potemkin villager

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    What he said. In addition, you could give their land back (or at least lease it from them) and I'm sure the AFN would call it even.
    #57
  18. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    It all makes me a wee bit nervous, the thought of 633 independent nations within this area called Canada. Utterly rediculous of course, but a distinct possibility, quickly followed by this area of the world called Canada becoming a backwater third world basketcase.

    As we all know, capital [like, investment money] is very fluid, and travels now at the blink of an eye to the most favourable of nations on this earth. Please, in reality, consider how fast current capital would exit this juristdiction, should all 116% [that's right] of this country be handed back to FN's. seriously, think about it ..,.
    #58
  19. Brunssd

    Brunssd Potemkin villager

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    What is ridiculous is thinking that capital would allow all of Canada's resources to just lie fallow since title was returned to its original owners. They would simply have to deal with the new owners and not the already bought off European political class. The FN might not be so amenable to the resource extractors habit of externalizing every cost possible and leaving environmental ruin in their wake, cf. Fort Chipewyan.

    I was just trying to move the discussion beyond the "blame the victim" rut y'all are in. We've taken the only thing of value the FN had, the land, and when we decided to literally stop killing them after a few centuries, we spend the next couple of centuries trying to annihilate their culture. And when we're done with that (not all that long ago, I might add) we ask them to explain why they are exactly where we absolutely, positively made sure that they would be.

    That is also ridiculous.
    #59
  20. Hardware02

    Hardware02 Long timer

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    Less than counterparts off reserves? Spence is a "chief" of a reserve of under 2000 people. She purportedly makes, $70K/year tax free (roughly equivalent to $90K off the reserve for someone who pays tax).

    My hometown of just just over 3000 has a mayor who gets a stipend - but no salary as it's a part time position.

    The mayor of Fredericton, NB makes $36,957 plus allowances (another $15,833) - not close to what Spence is scamming from all Canadians. Note Fredericton is a provincial capital with a population of over 55,000 people!

    Spence's salary should absolutely be a matter of public record because it's our tax dollars!

    Why should that be federal tax dollars? Us working stiff taxpayers don't get magic gov't money to leave & return to our hometowns whenever we feel like it.


    Agreed. But aren't all Aboriginals out there hunting and living off the land? Shouldn't what they need to get at the local Northern Store be fairly minimal?

    I'm not "ignorant" of conditions on reserves. I've been to too many and seen far too much abuse. The Criminal Code doesn't apply to them. I've seen cases of clear criminal negligence resulting in the deaths of children and because they're oppressed natives, grief counselors fly into the remote reserve but there was no discussion of the parents actually being arrested and charged.

    I am disgusted with the whole situation and something needs to change - Canadians need to wake up and start holding Aboriginals accountable!

    /rant off.

    Sources:

    Taxpayer.com

    CBC
    #60