Inject oil w/Scottoiler?

Discussion in '2 smokers' started by crg infidel, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. crg infidel

    crg infidel Adventurer

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    Hey all,

    I tried search, and got nowhere. So bear with me.

    I love seeing things used for purposes in which they were never, ever intended. I can't help but wonder if a Scottoiler (chain oiling system) or other such small oil pump, could be made to inject oil into the intake, thus eliminating the need to mix. Mixing gas & oil seems to be a hang up for some, and a deal-breaker for others.

    One of the Scottoilers is vacuum operated, and the other model is electronic. I must admit that I have no experience with these, but the idea seems feasible if some issues could be overcome.

    Can they be made to flow enough oil for the application?

    Can they be regulated for more output at higher RPM?

    Has anyone ever seen a system to inject oil into a 2-cycle that was not a factory unit? If (like a lot of my ideas) this is more trouble than it's worth, that's fine. But it would sure be fun if it could be done.

    We have some very skilled and experienced folks on this forum, and I'd love to hear what their thoughts are.
    #1
  2. Chillis

    Chillis Long timer

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    The Aprilia SR50 Ditech Morini engine uses an electric oil pump.

    If you want vacuum operated there is a mikuni fuel pump used on scooters that maybe couldbe used with an injection oil.

    I tthink vacuum is a bad way to go as you need rpm dependent and not load dependent.
    #2
  3. crg infidel

    crg infidel Adventurer

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    So....

    If one gallon equals 4546ml, and you're using a 50:1 ratio, then you're putting in about 91ml/gallon. That would have to be a damn low volume pump!

    What about a variable speed paristaltic pump? If there was a way to have a signal from the plug wire control the pump speed, then it would be linked right to the RPM.

    Does anyone with more electronic experience than myself, know of a way that such a pump could be governed with the RPM?
    #3
  4. joexr

    joexr Banned

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    This whole thing sounds like a good way to seize a motor.
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  5. crg infidel

    crg infidel Adventurer

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    Hahahaha! I think you're probably right! I'm most likely looking for the answer to a question that isn't being asked (wouldn't be the first time).

    Maybe I should be asking what technique you guys are using to get an accurate mix when you fuel at a pump.
    #5
  6. Chillis

    Chillis Long timer

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    Math and a proper measuring device for the oil. Calculator helps on the math part. Kind of a pain that you have to shake the bike after to mix it up if you don't know how much fuel you are putting in to add the oil before adding fuel.
    #6
  7. 81cr450

    81cr450 Been here awhile

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    I personally think your idea has merit. If you can figure out how to inject the oil load based it would well be worth doing . They didnt use the old oil injection pumps because it was cheaper & easier
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  8. anotherguy

    anotherguy unsympathetic

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    If it ain't broke don't fix it. But it appears you prefer if it ain't broke fix it 'til it is. Be sure to post photos of the carnage.
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  9. 81cr450

    81cr450 Been here awhile

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    Speaking of if it aint broke dont fix it, all those injection pumps people use to throw away off their bikes , did they actually fail or was it I know better & want to mix my own gas? Serious question I would like to know who made the best one, & if there were failures.

    Really I think that load based oil mixing would help the bike run better through the entire rpm band, manufacturers must have though it at some point too. Like when you actually used a 2 stroke for commuting , not just the circle jerk around a track.

    EFI on an older bike would really benefit from a injected oil set-up, as you could put the fuel into the cylinder just before the exhaust closes & really starts to build pressure in the cylinder. No more running fuel wash across the lower end bearings, just oil.

    Yeah theres no room for improvement, they should have just quit 100 years ago & called it good
    Splinters anyone?

    [​IMG]
    #9
  10. crg infidel

    crg infidel Adventurer

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    I never had an oil pump failure on any of my old bikes. And it was pretty nice to just add gas & go! I've been looking at an old IT465 without the pump, and it would be neat to find a way around mixing gas.

    I'm sure that my idea of using an alternative pump is not without risk. It may even be more risk than supposed benefit. But, as an exercise I think it would be interesting. But, I'm not reinventing the wheel. Small oil pumps exist, and devices to measure RPM exist. So....how to make them work together to mix the oil & gas at the right ratio?

    It seems like there would be a way to link engine RPM to pump output. Probably a simple task for one who understands electronics better than I do. Perhaps it could even be tailored to have a variable ratio at different speeds.

    Such as...

    Idle- 1ml/1000 revs

    Redline- 2ml/1000 revs

    Something close to a load based system, as has been mentioned.
    #10
  11. crg infidel

    crg infidel Adventurer

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    :rofl Oh ye of little faith!

    But you may well be right. I think it would be fun to try, though I may kill a piston or three in the process!

    And yes, I'll post pics if this little idea ever gets off the ground!
    #11
  12. Foot dragger

    Foot dragger singletracker

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    It is so,so,easy to put oil in gas,and so expensive to buy a new crank and top end during experiments.

    Maybe try an aquarium pump for a super charger next? Or belt drive made from real belts,like size 34's.
    #12
  13. Foot dragger

    Foot dragger singletracker

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    The crank gets oiled by premix also,so more then a piston/bore.
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  14. crg infidel

    crg infidel Adventurer

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    Aquarium pump?!?! That's crazy talk! I'm all set to run a 12volt inverter and dual hair dryers!!! That, with an O2 bottle plumbed into the airbox should net at least 2 more HP!!! A set of aftermarket muffler bearings will round out the package.

    I appreciate the concern, and the advice of you that don't wish to see another seized-up bike. I'm just gathering info and speculating at this point. (Don't even have the bike just yet!) If I do come up with a working prototype, I'll be sure to test it's output into a container while the bike itself runs on premix!

    I'd rather ride than wrench. But it would be to fun develop my own Auto-Lube.

    If it fails, I'll deserve all the "I told you so" you guys can dish out.

    But, as God as my witness, if it works, I'll have avoided a minor inconvenience!!!!!! :lol3
    #14
  15. anotherguy

    anotherguy unsympathetic

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    You're serious??!!! Dayum.........so don't forget to post up the post apocalypse images.
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  16. 81cr450

    81cr450 Been here awhile

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    It'll be neat to see how there injecting the oil on the new direct injected bikes, unless of course you though it went in with the gas :huh

    I think the way to go about retro-ing the injector pump would be just to use one of the older bike ones off of the same size of motor, or possibly something off of an outboard of equivilant cc. The whole reason I asked about pump failures.
    #16
  17. crg infidel

    crg infidel Adventurer

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    I think the problem with using a stock Auto-lube type pump is the drive. Don't they typically run off of a worm gear inside the case? I think that would be damn near impossible to fabricate into an engine that never ran a pump.

    That was why I was thinking more towards an electrically driven external pump. But.....if an old Auto-lube pump could be powered by a motor, that could work!

    Or.......I could just mix the gas! But, where's the fun in that?
    #17
  18. joexr

    joexr Banned

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    Another blithering fool pissing into the wind. You're English aren't you? [ private joke ]:lol3
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  19. 81cr450

    81cr450 Been here awhile

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    I'm working with what will be a KX560 so a big pump is what I'd be after , like a 650 / 750 pump , I believe you can adjust the flow. I'd probably look at running it of the stator side of the bike. A hand fabbed ignition cover wouldnt be to bad to attach an oil pump to.

    This pump here, 900cc I know but best pics, drives off of a simple flat drive " if " I'm looking at it right. Thats just what I found after a couple minutes on ebay. I really think using an existing pump would simpler & already calibrated for progressive flow like 200:1 trials bike mix down low to 20:1 top-end machine up in the RPM's.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-PJ...Parts_Accessories&hash=item4172e8d9ad&vxp=mtr

    If you were doing an aluminum frame conversion like a service honda , you could use the aluminum frame as your oil tank, the wide spars are being used by some as extra fuel capacity.

    I know I think to much, but I really feel adding this to an EFI bike would be quite suprising on how clean it would run. Its like when you ride a big bore slow & the low RPM vacuum doesnt evacuate the oil it just keeps loading up without enough draw to keep it moving through because you have to mix your oil ratio safe for those " clean out" top end blasts
    #19
  20. 81cr450

    81cr450 Been here awhile

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    #20