Inside the Reiger Shock

Discussion in 'Trials' started by motobene, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    If you were going to buy a new one, you should not need servicing for quite a while, if ever, so why not just buy one?

    One thing I'll find out when I get into mine is how fast the oil tends to get trashed. There's some hard-pounding hours on my shock. If the oil comes out fairly clear, you all will be able to take confidence these things can get the crap beat out of them with little worry for servicing. I typically pour some of the oil onto a white paper towel to see the amont of particulates in the oil.

    I'll soon be receiving getting a back-up Reiger so I can confidently get into the Reiger in need of servicing to do so and display its guts here. Speculation by three of us now is this is a bladder accumulator shock, and not piston accumulator (DeCarbon-style piston separating gas from oil).

    We need a USA source for servicing these things, and I or another should be able to do so. The factory's caution against just any old servicing effort is understandable, as they are trying to prevent problems from poor rebuilds. Sometimes the special tools are needed, sometimes the lack of them just adds to the time to service one.
    #21
  2. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    you mean the "tapatalk" line? that is auto generated sig, from the application I use to read forums, when on my phone. problem is I hate trying to type on tiny screen filled with tiny keyboard, lol. I left it, in hopes of those that "know" will understand the "more than normal for me, the typo's" and messed up words... as I have tried several times to let Android & google convert speech to text, then post. Only to realize that when I say certain words, for example "rider" is always transcribed or written by google voice, as "writer" and other silly ass changes and synonyms...

    lol.
    #22
  3. liviob

    liviob Been here awhile

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    I usually ride every weekend and I service the evo damper about every 4-6 months. The oil is very dirty at the time of service. Also I notice the oil begin deteriorating by the third ride. The damper holds about a shot glass full of oil and the Rieger holds less because of its diameter. The Reiger does not use a floating piston it is built like the 03-08 Paoli damper used on the Beta rev3 series bikes. Personally I don't think this Reiger damper needs special tools to disassemble. My Evo damper still works fine and is serviceable so spending $1200 plus shipping for the Reiger damper is not necessary and should it need to be sent to Reiger for every service I would not be happy.
    #23
  4. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    $1,200 for a standard Reiger? Is this the price for the super Reiger with the 4 adjusters and rebound-delay?
    #24
  5. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    No the super Reiger is like $1400 depending on exchange. Ive known several very good riders switch to them and they can feel a huge difference with just a std reiger (3 way adj) as compared to the OEM Sachs shocks. (I think the super shock is only avail for GG's due to a licencing agreement) It would be good to have a USA based servicing option and even better if they were more affordable. I think you have to be pretty serious to justify it (or have plenty of disposable income) The reiger on my raga shows no sign of breakdown - feels like new still, but Im just an intermediate rider and unfortunately dont ride alot these days. (1/week) I do however really like it - its like cheating on hard hits IMO. Stu has done a good job making up lack of usa service for this by providing a loaner if needed. I only know of one shock that lost pressurization and Reiger rebuilt it to new under warranty. (Still had to pay expensive shipping though)
    #25
  6. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Yike$! I'll know more about the Super Reiger as Stu is sending me one to evaluate. I'll document it and publish the results.

    I'm particularly interested in the benefits and detractions of the delayed rebound function... how much of it I can adjust in or out. In other words, it's there, and it will hold the rear end down for X seconds on big hits, but what does that do for me and if I don't like it, will one of the adjusters allow me to adjust that tendency away? One (apparently wealthy) rider with one reports that it can make the bike feel heavier in the rear but that it has benefits for control in the rough.

    We shall see.
    #26
  7. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    Cool! Will be good to see what you find. One thing bad about the super shock is lack of documentation. Maybe you can help. I know most people may not know how to optimize the setup. The shock allows for High and Low speed damp adjustments, so im sure there is plenty that can be done with it in the right hands. The potential advantage is to keep the shock fast for hoping around on, but slower on the big stuff to avoid the hard bottom (something the std shock does amazingly well already) . The Reiger site used to have a PDF about the different adjustments, but I cant find it anymore. (crappy site IMO) I may have a copy somewhere. The thing I remember about the PDF was that they had a cartoon of a large double hit, that showed the advantage of the delay fx going into the 2nd hit. It seems that was the primary intention of the design. I heard Tony Bou's Showa shock did the same thing. Looking forward to learning from your investigations. :lurk
    #27
  8. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Cute popcorn-eating emoticon.

    I've talked with Stu about getting tech info from Reiger. We shall see....

    The second hit idea. Interesting. I can see that. We don't do whoops much in trials, so packing the damper out over multiple hard hits may be a non issue.
    #28
  9. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    #29
  10. liviob

    liviob Been here awhile

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    This was a few years ago but the Reiger tech said that the damper had all of the tricks in it. Delayed rebound after full compression etc.
    #30
  11. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Thanks! That doc abou the top or "factory" model Reiger shock is really helpful for setup and understanding how it is adjusted works.

    It's looking to me like the Reiger is a bladder accumulator shock where the gas reservoir is around the outside of the bulged portion of the shock. No separating piston that would block, oil, hardware, and adjustments in the top of the shock.

    Location of the compression "hydro stop" and the "bottom rebound" extension delay adjusters show what they are likely doing is using an extension of the shock rod beyond the valve stack that gets inserted into a metered counterbore in the head of the shock. The two adjusters are ball check valve flow control adjusters. On the compression hit at full travel, the rod extension flies into the counterbore and the only way out for the oil is the meter valve. On return stroke that vale's check ball closes and you have another meter valve for extension. These are some classic timing circuit hydraulic tricks applied to a shock.

    Pretty slick stuff.

    I found the following in the document interesting.

    The above mentioned spring rates are for the 2011 Raga Replica bikes for club level drivers. We advise more technical drivers to use one step softer spring and less technical drivers to use one step harder spring then quoted in the list. Because the 2010 and 2011 Raga Replica bikes have a different link systems do we advise to use a 5 N/mm stiffer spring on the 2010 bike.



    This points to the later model Pros having a rising rate linkage with a less steep rise in rate, being more plush feeling deeper into the travel. It also means the shock is slightly softer than if it were on the older frame with the longer dogbone links.

    I pick up on that difference coming from my elliptical-tube frame 2009 bike. I like the more predictable feel of the older linkage during rear end hops, but I really appreciate the added plushness of the newer linkage.

    Note their spring rate statements. The use Newtons per millimeter (N/mm) A Newton is .225 pounds and .102 kilograms. Catch that they call for more skilled riders use a softer spring. That's counter-intuitive, but correct.


    #31
  12. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    I caught that too (the spring recommendations) and initially made me scratch my head- but makes senses as the advanced rider makes better use of there legs.

    Cool explanation on the shock. Glad the pdf helped. It looks likes a GG specific document, but I cant find it on there site (or the Reiger site) anymore. weird.

    With all the different features on the various shocks, I was told that the shock that came on the GG Race can not be upgraded into a "reiger raga factory". The GG Raga shock can be upgraded. (not sure of the $ though)
    #32
  13. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    The Race's Reiger shock is probably just fine. All the adjustments are BS if your shock is working as you need it to.

    You've given my another clue. If the Raga shock can be upgraded, I wonder is all that factory busy-ness is based on the presence of the compression adjuster on the Raga, which itself may be based on an extension of the rod? The added 'factory' adjustments simply being circuits in the 'factory' thread-on head?

    It'll be interesting to see what's in the Raga shock when I get around to it.
    #33
  14. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Received the Reiger "Factory"-version shock from the official Reiger importer Stewart Preston. Reiger, by the way is Dutch for Stork. In Dutch it'd be unpronounceable as both the R and G are very hard guttural, like rolling up a huge lugee (hocker) to lock and load. To the American tongue it is pronounced Rai-gurr.

    The Factory version of their shock hosts a gaggle of adjusters. The additional adjusters beyond the Raga OEM shock are:

    - Low-speed compression
    - "Hydro-stop" adjustable timing of full compression at end of travel
    - "Bottom rebound" adjustable timer for releasing from the "hydro-stop" position at full compression

    The rebound adjuster has an additional purple knob around it, but I can't get it to move so I think it is more a cosmetic bit.

    Here are pix:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #34
  15. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    I was asked about the Factory shock several times at the Peru, KS 2-day. I'm sorry, guys, for not bringing it with me.

    I just took a call from fellow who took his Reiger apart. The biggest pain, he said is how they gas and de gas the shock. Otherwise it's a conventional thread-in seal head shock. This and other info helps. I'll get a round to the disassembly project when I can.
    #35
  16. Jonny042

    Jonny042 Been here awhile

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    This weekend I flipped my Reiger shock so it has the reservoir at the bottom, away from the heat of the exhasut. Since mine is a "race" model Gas Gas it only has one adjuster (at end of the rod) and nothing on the body. I can still reach the adjuster using a screwdriver, same as adjusting the ohlins on my 2011.

    At the same time I put the original 70nm spring back on. I have been riding on a 75nm spring but have been concerned that the bike was oversprung and underdamped for my weight. I was on the wrong side of 200 when I got the spring but am down to 185 or so - I also had a replaced one front spring with a stiffer on but went back to stock in the front too.

    Anyway, it was a piece of cake to flip it over, but when I went to give the bike a bounce after reassembly the rear suspension didn't seem to be moving freely. Took the eyes apart again and checked for binding, etc. then upon reassembly I realized that the damping setting I was on (5 clicks out from max) was the reason it didn't seem to be moving freely. I had to back it out another 10 clicks before it seems right to me.

    The strange thing is there was a real lack of damping a while back, and that is why I was at such a "high" damping setting.

    Is there some reason why the damping characteristics of the shock would change drastically? I mean it's obvious there are a few ways for a shock to LOSE damping, but gaining? .... not so sure.

    I am pretty confused. And a little worried that this thing seems to have a mind of its own......

    Any insight for me?
    #36
  17. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    The spring change would affect it. A lower K spring would effectively decrease comp damp and increase rebound damp. Is it really the slower rebound your feeling?
    #37
  18. crazybond700

    crazybond700 Adventurer

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    #38
  19. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    When I attempted to flip mine over I found a very slight interference between the wide end and the suspension linkage area at full shock extension. I was in a big hurry to make a 2-day event, so I scrambled to fit it right side up, popping the eye spacers back out and pressing them back in. The 2013 Replica and maybe 2014 versions may have some minor change to deal with the interference. The Race shock may have no interference, as it has not compression adjuster bulge. Perhaps I had the compression adjuster flipped wrong way around? As I said, I was in a hurry.

    I also have yet to have the dedicated time to fit and test the Factory version shock and get into my current Raga-level shock.

    I find is hard to understand how a 5 N/mm difference in the spring would provide a radical change in rebound speed (but it's possible). 5 N over - what is it - 50mm total travel will be 250 N, which is 25,5 kg or about 56 pounds more extension force at full compression.

    Reiger recommends a SOFTER spring the more "technical" a rider you are. That's contra-intuitive.

    The loss of damping previously that you describe is hard to figure out. These are pressurized and closed systems that tend not to fail in some way and then un fail. But stranger things have happened.
    #39
  20. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    What is the stroke distance of these things. My guess would have been more like 65mm - but have never actually measured it. (counting the bump stop compression)

    Looking forward to the factory test, but think you will have your hands full there. Lots going on, with much of it geared toward the Pro rider. On paper, I see the HS damping as being very useful feature to even mere mortals, so most interested what you think of how well that actually works.
    #40