Is ATGATT overrated?

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by blk-betty, Apr 6, 2012.

  1. B.Curvin

    B.Curvin Feral Chia tamer

    Feb 15, 2004
    Left of the dial. Canton, NC

    I, and every racer/track dayer I've ever spoken to slowed down their street riding after going to the track. Once you've been on the track you realize just how NOT fast you can actually go on the street and therefore slow down because it's futile. I have had a couple offs on the street since I raced, but they were both low speed spills.
  2. blk-betty

    blk-betty bam-a-lam

    Aug 7, 2009
    Charleston, SC
    Really no way to tell. A "little" track time may give someone more confidence than they deserve resulting in riding the dragon harder whereas a 'lot" of track time would definately help assuimg the track time was on the same bike.

    Personalities are different...some would use the track time to hone their skills which they carry over to the street for the intent of safety while others would use the skills to allow them to run faster on the street.

    Nice thing about a HD is the floorboards fold up and when they first touch you still have a good bit of lean left before you need to worry about lifting a wheel. Not to mention they make a hell of racket when they scrape so you know early on before things start to get dicey. Of course if you come in too hot to begin with you may be over your head but a few practice runs at a slower pace will let you know when and where your "curb feelers" will come into play.
  3. blk-betty

    blk-betty bam-a-lam

    Aug 7, 2009
    Charleston, SC
    Good to know!

    Goes aganist what I would have thought and just goes to show I don't know shit.

    Only seasoned track rider I ever rode with was a 60-65 year old who at the time was riding a KLR on a group ride I was leading and he blew by me on my Tiger 1050 running 60 on a flat road with long s-curve sweepers that was posted for 55 mph. WTF, this guy was 60-65 and on a KLR!!!!! I sped up and was running 80-85 for about 2-3 miles hanging about 75 feet behind him.

    His other bike is a R1 and he claims to have gone down on the track at around 120 mph. He's a ex-military fighter pilot so adrenline rushes and risk taking are in his blood.
  4. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

    Aug 18, 2003
    Richmond, Va
    Like I said, the Dragon Thread is chock full of folks running out of talent long before their bike runs out of ability. If someone has 1 track day under their belt, they will understand that the rear brake is not the only functioning brake on the bike. There is plenty of rear brake only action going on in that thread. So lack of skill is a huge liability.

    I have no doubt that personalities differ, but I equate someone who has taken the time to try a track day, with someone who has an above average skillset. Of course, being above average really isn't much to crow about..
  5. Celtic Curmudgeon

    Celtic Curmudgeon Indiana Jones wanabe

    Feb 6, 2011
    Boca Raton
    On the first page of this threat, the question was raised as to whether this would "end well" and were we capable of a civil discussion. So far so good - speaks to the quality of people here and the range of experience represented.

    Second, we still haven't sorted out just exactly what constitutes ATGATT. You wearing all your gear and me wearing all mine might be two different things. I'd respectfully suggest that as serious riders, we spend less time and blood pressure stewing over whether failing to wear a neck brace makes one a squid, and more time promoting a reasonable "minimum standard". The guy wearing a 3/4 helmet, work or hiking boots, gloves and jeans, may not be the ideal, but he's far, far ahead of the more typical shorts/wifebeater/tennis shoe combo I see dozens of times every day.

    I got passed on I-95 the other day by a Hyabusa - the rider wearing a helmet, t-shirt, cargo shorts, and hi-tops, the little girl on back, boy shorts, a sports bra (no shirt at all), low-tops, and sunglasses. He was probably running 100-115. That's just bullshit, folks....:asshat
  6. fuelish

    fuelish Been here awhile

    Oct 18, 2011
    Raleigh, NC
    It would be interesting to see a survey that had: How long have you ridden, what kind of riding(urban, weekend fun ride, daily commuter, touring, highway) with percentages of each type, what kind of gear worn and when, type of bike, training(MSF, track days, etc), total mileage/annual mileage, accidents with descriptions(and auto accidents as well), perception of riding skill. If it is complete enough, we might even get some solid answers.
  7. TrashCan

    TrashCan Scary Jerry

    Oct 5, 2005
    Louisville, Tn

    You got me there.

  8. Dreaded 1

    Dreaded 1 Dreaded 1

    Sep 7, 2010
    Ontario, Canada
    I wear ATGATT and I insist that my son and grandson do as well, I buy their bikes so I have some say, but I really don't give a rats a$$ what anyone else wears or what they ride. I don't understand why people insist on trying to force their beliefs on others. When I started to ride 46 years ago no one that I knew could afford a new bike or fancy gear. On the week-ends it was smorgasbord of old dirt bikes, street bikes, road bikes and race bikes and mostly work clothes but we all had fun and no one preached.
  9. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

    Feb 11, 2012
    Here we go:
    Riding for 10 years since the age of 16. Everything from daily commuting over daily trips to thousands of miles long holiday tours on all kinds of paved roads. I'm considering my skill level as average but my enthusiasm as above average with around 10k miles a year and ~90k miles total.
    Driving school is obligatory here as are helmets and I have "full gear" (armored textile jacket and pants, over-ankle motorcycle specific shoes but not boots cause I walk around in them quite a lot, thin leather gloves, full face helmet). Often changed the pants for leather jeans, especially in the first half of the 10 years, now I'm tending to stay with the armored pants because they are not that uncomfortable - most times I change my clothes when I leave home no matter what, so why not take the more armored ones.
    But, when in the mood and riding only through the city I sometimes am without anything at all. At school after physical education I loved to ride through the city park without any gear, having my helmet hanging aside the bike, as I nowadays like a bit of city cruising on a warm summer evening without or when riding home->petrol station->supermarket->home.

    Coming to the crashes:
    Uncounted times falling over on gravel, snow and ice espacially in the first years. One big crash at the age of 17, fork deformed, footpeg broken off, ankle sprained, big scratches in the helmet at the temple.
    2 car crashes, one in winter and one out of plain stupid daydreaming on the highway, both ending in the crash barrier UNbelted. Demolished the pedals, centre console, bented the front passenger door from the inside and got away with only a less than finger tip small bruise.
    I have been driving 190mph on a motorcycle, so why should I bother to belt on in a cage.
  10. '05Train

    '05Train Mind is not for rent

    Jun 29, 2011
    Riding since I was 8 (36 years ago), first 10 years were dirt only. Various street bikes since then, everything from standards to cruisers to tourers to crotch rockets to sport tourers. Average around 30,000 miles a year in commuting, general pleasure riding, and long trips. I've always been a stickler on boots and gloves, until the big wreck 4 months ago, I wore some combination of jeans, kevlar jeans, and chaps, with heated overpants (with armor) in the winter. Every jacket I own has (and has had) armor in it, but in hot weather I was in a t-shirt (sometimes with sleeves). Half helmet in warm weather, full helmet in the cold, no helmet in states that don't require them.

    I've done a couple of MSF courses, and practice on my own using the Harris Papers and other teaching materials. I consider myself to be a decent rider.
  11. perterra

    perterra -. --- .--. .

    Sep 6, 2010

    For many here it would require a post the length of a novel.

    how long, have ridden 42 years

    what kind of riding, every kind. There have been times I didn't own a cage. Don't have a clue on percentage. I'll just say I didn't ride dirt on the Goldwing and I didn't tour two up on the Suzuki TS-250

    Gear, depends. If I'm traveling it will be pretty much everything from flip up helmet to armored pants and jacket, if I'm running to the hardware store it will be 3/4 helmet and gloves.

    MSF years ago

    Mileage, don't have a clue, have ridden as much as 50,000 miles a year to as little as 5,000 miles a year

    Cant recall the last accident I had, cant recall the last accident I had in a cage.

    My perception of my riding skills, not the best, not the worst. Could give a shit less about adrenaline, speed or making sure theres no chicken strips on the tires.

    I use my bike to explore, not have a Walter Mitty boy racer experience.
  12. Alton

    Alton Been here awhile

    Feb 21, 2008
    St. Louis, USA
    I moved up to ATGATT a few years ago and I'm glad I did. Last year my bike threw a rod and seized at 70mph. Not sure who in the world has the skill to avoid that one.

    My cordura jacket looked like swiss cheese and my leather pants were worn almost through in several places. My leather gloves are covered in small holes. I walked away with a chipped ankle bone.

    Had I not been ATGATT, I would have looked like that poster girl that has shown up several times in the thread.

    ATGATT is not overrated. However, I'm not going to tell you that you need to be ATGATT. If wearing the gear is too much hassle for you, hey, you're an adult and its your choice. Like many safety measures, as an adult you should have the right to choose your level of protection as long as it doesn't put anyone else at risk.
  13. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

    Sep 8, 2010
    Southern New Jersey
    Riding 41 years.
    On the street for 37 years.
    No gear ever other then a 3/4 helmet, and cold weather gear.
    Average miles per year 15,000 or more.
    10% commuting (used to not have a car), 20% long trips, 10% running to the store, 60% fun rides.
    I ride year round.
    I have been to about 40 states on a bike.

    I was never in an accident involving another vehicle, low sided on the street twice when I started street riding, in the rain, and very drunk. I then got better at riding drunk and did not crash again.

    Average riding skill, except from the standpoint of being able to (street) ride without crashing.
    Its been 35 years since my last crash.

    No track days, no schooling, no books read, I did some enduro racing.
    I like to go fast, street or dirt, or at least, as fast as the bike will go.

    I have never crashed a car into something, I did roll one over.
    I have had a few cases where someone ran into my car, when I was stopped.

  14. gfloyd2002

    gfloyd2002 Title Free Since '12

    Dec 11, 2011
    Bridgetown, Barbados
    Impact without back protection in a getoff varies greatly, but 50kN is used as the standard for testing motorcycle gear. Research on spinal injuries suggests that even a direct blow to the spine at 4 kN is enough to cause lumbar fracture. At 10 kN, there roughly a 50% chance of injury. At 50kN, your spine or other bones are toast if you are unlucky enough to sustain impact.

    Wear CE rated gear to reduce the risk. The cut-off for the average transmitted peak force in CE II level certification is 9 kN. Some gear, like SAS-TEC measures out at a peak impact transmission of much lower (I think 6 or 7 kN.) If you care about a broken spine, wear gear with CE II rated, or better protection. Will cut your chance of injury by 1/2 . Similar story with other bones (have a friend just out of hospital with broken femur from car turning in front of him, despite his careful riding - he wasn't wearing impact protection on his legs).

    Impact reducing character of gear, and the significant reduction of risk to you by wearing it isn't opinion, it is science. Sure, you can be lucky and avoid an accident, or be lucky and keep away from impact. But being lucky doesn't mean you are riding smart. Gear up.
  15. 2aRover

    2aRover Been here awhile

    Mar 22, 2005
    Overrated? No. ATGATT is about being prepared for what might come along, whether it's hail, heat, or asphalt. Or, yeah, pretty girls watching me strip off my gear. :evil I don't mind being uncomfortable, but pain hurts and I don't like it. I can be out having plenty of other experiences if I'm not messed up.

    I don't always make the right decision, and I've crashed twice because of it--once, 400 miles from home in the Columbia River Gorge, with 125 miles to go. I got up, noted that my knee armor was shredded, my glove was abraded, and that I had not a scratch nor a bruise. I rode on to my destination on the coast. Being prepared ensured that the crash was just another event and not a showstopper.

    It won't save me from everything, but it's saved my hide, sight, and my face; it's done its job marvelously. I'm one of the prudes: ATGATT regardless of the ride or distance. It's the right thing to do. It isn't my business to preach that to other riders that may not be, even if they are friends, even if they die. It's MY choice. Others get to make their own.
  16. Gummee!

    Gummee! That's MR. Toothless

    May 13, 2004
    NoVA for now...
    Religious arguments rarely do

    Fireworks commencing soon. Pass the butter m'kay?! :lurk

  17. Mr. B

    Mr. B Contrarian

    Oct 19, 2004

    Anything resolved? Deal me out: Unsubscribed.
  18. Nevada

    Nevada Been here awhile

    Oct 4, 2009
    Somehwere in the Utah Valley
    ATGATT isn't about preventing accidents (although a face shield does help a smidge in that department, as do goggles). ATGATT is about what happens after the accident begins. She completely owns "don't do dumb shit", and includes wearing no gear as "dumb shit."

    ATGATT is all about minimizing risk. I can't say that I'm ATGATT, but I am "ATGMTT", save for "MoTGTRTT". ALWAYS helmet, gloves, riding jacket. Riding pants and boots, 95% of the trips, 99% of the miles. When I go to lunch from work, I may not wear the boots and pants.
  19. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

    Mar 18, 2007
    Begin Op Zoom
    I like to ride motorcycles. I REALLY like to ride motorcycles. I like it so much I will go so far as to take a few normal and rational steps to preserve my ability to ride EVERY day. I believe that it is reasonable and prudent to don a modicum of protective attire to that end.
  20. Thanantos

    Thanantos Ride hard.

    Jul 17, 2008
    An excellent point I have made to my "T-shirt and jeans" crowd friends before. Add to this that I am an hourly employee and ATGATT just makes sense.