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Discussion in 'Racing' started by HogWild, Nov 26, 2017.
Was the truck on the boat?
Cheers mate, top work.
My reading was that Alex D was protesting what he perceived to be a too lenient penalty, eg he thought the rules required more than 1hr penalty. He withdrew the protest once it was clear jbb couldn't make up the time differential to his riders.
Ah that makes sense
Anyways 3 days to go......
Interestingly enough, from that it says: Type Liquid cooled single cylinder DOHC
However, the current CRF engines are still Unicam designs, which is a single cam set-up. They have been using a version of that since 2002. Wonder if the rallye is a bespoke engine or whether it is a typo.
Might be, as it has apparently 6 speeds.
Yep. Honda were caught cheating red handed, and there riders get a slap on the wrist with a 1 hour penalty, he thought it should be more severe, and considering Marc Coma got slapped with a 6 hour penalty after he just got lucky and happened to find a wheel behind a shed, I can kind of see why...
But when you have already beaten them, whats the point in pursuing it.
People can argue all they want that it was just a misunderstanding, but even I knew that non scheduled fuel stops are a no no (if it was OK, they would all race Baja style bikes and do splash and dashes all day), and if an average enthusiast with limited understanding of the rules knows that, then maybe the guy who told them to do it should know that (the riders are just following orders so it all does suck for them).
But Honda's efforts over the last years of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory has made me wonder what things would have been like if Wolfgang, JBB and Gonc had have stayed at Speedbrain...
No it is a DOHC, someone posted a pic of the engine in a riders/mechanics hands last year, and I was going to say it wasn't the CRF Rallye's engine, but luckily I looked into it a bit more before I opened my mouth...
My understanding of the FIM regulation for the 450 cross country rally Super production class is... that the Engine must be of the same design/construction of that of a production model that the manufacturer produces. That is not to say it necessarily comes from the SAME bike (in this case the production CRF/CRF-X), but it has to be a production version of something in their current model range. Like KTM's previous generation Rally 450RR had the motor from the SXF/Quad... not the EXC version.
So - as tREV's post above indicates - the DOHC is not a typo, it must be that HRC use that motor in something else... they certainly do not produce enough 450 rally bikes annually, for the "450 Rally" to be deemed a "production" model (for homologation purposes) I don't believe?
I got that last pic from this page https://www.dirtrider.com/hrc-wins-vegas-to-reno-2016#page-2
It has this written under that pic...
"While based on a CRF450X platform, the CRF450 Rally engine is light years ahead with fuel injection, a dual overhead cam head and rumored six-speed gearbox giving it the legs to run well over 100 miles per hour. Vegas to Reno was the culmination of durability testing on the bikes that Barreda and teammate Michael Metge (who finished sixth after a rear-wheel issue the first day). They’ve been riding nearly constantly for the past three weeks, the bikes receiving little more than normal oil and filter changes, new tires and regular baths. Now they’ll be sent back to Japan where engineers can measure wear, but the bikes appear to be ready to go head to head with the factory Red Bull KTMs at Dakar 2017."
Pretty sure the HRC rally engine shares pretty much nothing with the production CRFs (X or not) of any recent years..
that the Engine must be of the same design/construction of that of a production model that the manufacturer produces..
Does Moto 3 count as a production model?
I went to cite the FIM Technical Regulations for Cross Country rallies (that the ASO DAKAR supplementary event regulations refer to - as far as motor/eligibility is concerned).
Curiously though, the "Cross Country Rally Technical Regulations" are not on the FIM site (anywhere that I could find?).
Moto 3 is a maximum capacity of 250cc I believe...? But perhaps if HONDA have a homologated DOHC version of that Engine for Moto 3, then they have the grounds to run a 450cc version in the factory Rally 450...?
Wouldn't it be too funny if hrc "overlooked" that rule too? Not without precedent clearly.
I'd have thought Dakar would allow development engines surely though but I don't know the rules and I'm certainly not going to get to know them now that intimately.
I couldn't find them either... Am still digging
I'm sure that whatever configuration the HRC Rally 450 Engine is - that it is ratified as per the ASO/DAKAR regs' and the FIM technical specification for the Cross Country Rally eligibility... It is just curious to know, excatly what the criteria is, as it is evident that the factory 450 Rally does not share it's engine with the production CRF-X (a widely held misnoma by many of the public). It is not without precedent howerver, as I point out the KTM 450 Rally motor is not an "off the shelf" item from the EXC... nor was it's predecessor... or the engine from the 690 Rally before that.
fwiw. I think there is some leniency going on when it comes to 'Super Production' - certainly for the Factory teams (who might argue are pushing the development of the sport, and any subsequent 'production' models...)
The original KTM 450RFR engine was a mix and match of EXC/SX and Quad components, and it's feasible that certain elements may still have the same part numbers or dimensions at least - although I'm sure the factory engine parts are all hand-finished and/or produced in 'special' batches - but the current RFR engine is really a beast in itself these days. However, at least KTM do put their 450RFR into a limited production run (100-200 units) the following year, to meet the spirit of 'homologation' at least.
The question mark has always been about Honda HRC, who not only seem to be now running a dedicated engine (twin cam vs the uni-cam as we ascertained last year), but still persist in not releasing 'replica' bikes for sale, other than to a handful of approved 'satellite' teams it would appear?
Similarly in response to a suggestion earlier on this thread - you can also guarantee that the CRF450Rallye frame is nothing like the production CRF R or X models... despite being of an aluminium beam frame design and therefore visually similar, in reality it's going to share as much with their production bikes as the KTM 450RFR frame does with their 690 Enduro.
ps. I make this assumption in the first paragraph based on the fact that John/Carl was able to race the Rally Raid LC4-50 in Super Production in 2015, despite there being only one example of the bike being built at the time. I can only imagine that the factory HRC Hondas are put through individual SVA tests each year (this could well be why they always used to be/still are? registered in the UK) so that technically they are road-registered as a production vehicle (and also technically available for purchase/sale) - despite not having 200+ examples built to meet traditional FIM/FIA Homologation regulations. Dakar is, as we know, a law unto itself sometimes!
Did exactly that (and a couple other variations) the FIM site (which I have a direct link to) only lists a few arbitrary "supplementary regulations" such as Sardinia and Ruta Des 40 amongst others... but not the Technical regulations as such.