JCosta vs Dr Pulley sliders - specific questions!

Discussion in 'Battle Scooters' started by Cortez, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    Greets everyone!
    This may ended up as a rant, but I'm hoping someone will still read it.. :D

    I'd love to hear owners of JCosta CVTs and their opinions/experience with
    it, and what exactly it does to the riding experience.


    I'm no noob at this, but NO ONE will reflect on ANYTHING in their review
    other then writing that when they give it WOT, the revs will rise a lot
    higher then with their stock CVT. I've seen that some report lower revs
    at top speed, so, it seems the jcosta does exactly what Dr Pulley sliders
    do
    (IF you pick the exact sliders that would rev the bike out like the
    jcosta will).

    What about cruising revs? Normal use? City riding?

    I don't want the scooter screaming at 7000rpms (out of let's say 8500
    available) while riding at 40mph in the city with my GF in the back, I want
    the engine to be as relaxed and revs as low as possible.

    With the Pulley sliders in my scoot (Downtown 300i), I've managed to get about
    2 seconds better acceleration to 60mph while only slightly affecting the
    cruising revs up to 50mph (I usully see 5000 now instead of 4500 at same
    speeds up to 50-55mph).

    The revs at speeds above 65mph start dropping slowly, and at 75mph now
    I've got 6500 showing, and before I had exactly 500 more = 7000.

    That made a huge difference in fuel consumption at cruising speeds.

    WOT from dead stop revs the bike to 6600-6700 now, and it was at around
    5900-6100 before
    which made a huge difference in acceleration at any
    speeds, and got rid of the flat spot around 65mph. I'm not sure if it's due
    to the engine not being fully broken in yet, but the scoot won't go over
    87mph at around 7600 rpm, which is a shame since the engine's power
    tops out at 8000 and I know there's some juice left. The stock test bike
    I tried topped out at 96mph @8700 rpms (not that I'd ride at those speeds
    or revs, but it was possible), but that thing had worn out weights.

    I went from 15.5 stock weights to 14gr sliders, for the record.

    It'll probably get a bit better (only 1000 miles on the scoot) with time, but
    I was wondering what jcosta would do to the revs - and not
    only at full throttle?


    I see that I can expect that it would rev out to 8000 at WOT, which would
    be great, BUT, NOT at the cost of high revs all the time. I don't want the
    needle pinned in the last quarter of the rev range at all speeds. I can do
    that with 13gr sliders, don't need a different CVT at all.

    I guess what I want is the eCVT from the Burgman 650 :D with power mode
    on demand, and a nice overdrive for my 70mph cruising.

    Anyone who put on the jcosta on his scoot, chime in!
    I'm hoping someone made an effort to notice the revs at normal usage,
    cruising revs etc.


    I'd just like to have the same revs showing as they do now, when riding
    normally, and when I punch it, I want to me able to use all (or most) of
    the available power, since at 6500revs that I get now, I'm using only 24
    of the available 30+hp.


    I guess it's the same with all scoots, and the Dr Pulley sliders made a
    huge improvement, but I don't think I could live with a lighter set of those.

    Mission impossible?

    Don't even want to start about aftermarket clutches.. :huh

    Thanks to anyone who read the whole thing, you get a free picture! YAY

    [​IMG]
    #1
  2. MODNROD

    MODNROD Decisions, decisions

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    Good questions Cortez. And no, that's not a rant! :lol3

    I know you said you don't want to hear about aftermarket clutches.......BUT.......I have used the HiT clutch and set it up so it has high revs on launch, but lower revs than stock when cruising, and in conjunction with the Dr Pulleys, adds yet more accel. If you use them with the sliders of a similar or even higher weights, you have better accel AND higher speed at lower revs, but that was with a 50cc 2smoke, not a big motor..

    I haven't used the J.Costa, but I know the Tmax guys swear by them. Whether it's better than Dr Pulley and the HiT clutch combination will probably be hard to find out, because it's probably unlikely that anyone has bought, fitted, set up and then tested both systems to compare them. Perhaps do a search on the Tmax thread?
    #2
  3. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    Sorry, I'll make an extra effort next time. :D

    Yeah, I've read a bit of the tmax stuff long time ago and am subscribed to
    the thread, but will have to re-read some older posts. I should ask LARC0,
    if he's still alive and kicking, but considering how he's riding, he won't know
    the cruising revs stuff, and I figure you didn't have a rev counter on your
    50cc either, right?

    If I got this right, with the HiT clutch, you're able to keep lower revs at
    cruising speeds? That sounds interesting. I'd like.. let's see.. at least 500
    more at WOT in any given situation and same or lower revs at minimal
    throttle.

    If a clutch can do that, I'm sold.
    ANd yeah, I've read great things about the HiT clutch already.
    #3
  4. Qaz

    Qaz Been here awhile

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    Cortez, Let me be the first to congatulate you on you excellent purchase 30+ HP out of a 300cc scooter is really strong, you may have the only one in existance.

    I do not have either the Dr. Pulley or Hit clutch in either of my scooters, but I have played around with the variator weights. With scooters, you give up something and some times alot, with changes to the transmission. On your 300, you went down 1.5 grams x number of roller slots lets say 6, which equals a total weight loss of 9 grams. Although the DP sliders act differently than rollers, they are still bound by the laws of physics. Your around town RPM's increased because the lighter weights do not react to the centripital force as quickly as the 15.5 rollers did, also because the spring on the pulley behind the clutch is balanced for the 15.5 rollers. The DPS's push the variator faces closer together because of the angle of their face which causes the reduction of RPM's on the highway. Whith a motorcycle and their manual transmission, you can usually have your cake and eat it too. That is not the case with a scooter, a CVT is always trade offs, you can go for more bottom end acceleration, but you give up top end and that is what you did. With CVT you are essentially picking an operating RPM and then have to live within it. The Hit clutch is leting you pick a RPM where the clutch engages, it may have softer compound on the shoes, or stronger springs or both, but it only stops clutch slipage and does nothing to change operating RPM's.
    Hey, got to go! I will finish this Tuesday.
    #4
  5. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    Um, what? :huh

    The rest I was mostly aware of.
    #5
  6. TheReaper!

    TheReaper! Been here awhile

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    Hands down it's the jcosta , I have them in my Big Ruckus and my Tmax .
    Without the jcosta the Big Ruckus runs for shit , with it it's a totally different
    scooter . The jcosta is by far the biggest bang for the buck mod in scooter land .

    TheReaper!
    #6
  7. MODNROD

    MODNROD Decisions, decisions

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    With respect, I beg to differ.
    The HiT clutch isn't like a normal clutch, eg. Malossi, etc. It has TWO sets of springs, one set varies the revs where the clutch shoes start to press against the drum, the same as a Malossi, but there is a second set of springs that then allows extra weights to operate a cam that presses the shoes harder into the drum than normal, and these weights are primarily driven by road speed. You also have the ability to change cam ramp rates and secondary weights to really fine tune the set up.

    You can have heavy springs on the launch weights, like a normal clutch pack, to raise the revs on launch, say take launch revs from 5000 to 7000, but then have lighter weights on the second spring set that lock up the clutch at 50kph/60kph/70kph, to reduce revs on highway cruise. while cruising, if you snap the throttle, the variator weights and the clutch springs both work as a normal set up.

    But again, whethyer the system as a package works BETTER than the J.Costa, I don't know, sorry man,
    #7
  8. Qaz

    Qaz Been here awhile

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    Modnrod- The hit clutch uses a set of springs to control at what RPM the shoes engage and a pillow spring to control stall rpm's. A slide is used to exert mechanical leverage on the shoe for extra bite. All mechanical actions are determined by RPM's not road speed. The stall speed is usually set at 3,000 rpm's, so it makes no difference whether the scooter is traveling at 5mph or 20mph if the engine is turning 3,000 rpm's or faster, the clutch is engaged, lower than 3,000 rpm's you are free wheeling!
    Please explain what part of this I am wrong about, I am always open to learning something new. Also explain how clutch engagement can varie your rpm's at cruising speeds.
    #8
  9. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    Yeah, so I've heard.. but my questions still remain, regarding the cruising revs
    and normal usage.

    The most quoted benefits of jcosta are the same as Dr Pully slider mod, so
    I'm trying to figure out if it's an investment that I need.

    I'm aware that I'll get even better performance then now, but that's easy
    to do and cheaper with the sliders, but I don't want to have the engine
    screaming 24/7 even when I ride normally, and that's most of the time.
    #9
  10. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    This also sounds interesting since I could live with a bit less revs going
    around town, the clutch is slipping a lot there, and 5000 rpms sounds like
    too much for 20-40mph speeds and 1mm of throttle opening. If I could
    drop the revs a bit at low cruising speeds, that would be great, but that's
    not enough to justify a rather steep asking price of the clutch.

    Thanks for the info.:freaky
    #10
  11. TheReaper!

    TheReaper! Been here awhile

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    I did the slider thing and IMO it was a waste of time and money . The difference between
    the sliders and the jcosta are like day and night . Between the re-jetting , the proper amount of
    oil in the crank case and the jcosta , it made the Big Ruckus a good performing scooter . Without
    those mods it really wasn't drivable to me . While the Big Ruckus might be the most solid built
    scooter ever built , it ran for shit . With those mods mentioned above , again IMO made it one of
    the best scooters ever FOR ME .

    While I would love it if the Big Ruckus were a little bigger overall
    and had more horse power , it is what is which is the best around town 250cc scooter ever
    built . Was it perfect off the show room floor ? HELL NO ! It came stock with several built in gremlins ,
    but again it is what it is . So not only is it an expensive scooter in comparison to a lot of other scooters ,
    it came with about $700 worth of gremlins that needed to be exorcised .

    Bottom line to me it was well worth the trouble , maybe for some very budget minding types it won't be .
    It's up to the individual . As long as I am able to ride 2 wheels , I will own a Big Ruckus .

    TheReaper!
    #11
  12. Pimpwerx

    Pimpwerx Adventurer

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    I know Big Ruckus owners use the JCosta, but do they make one for the 150cc GY6? I have only read about sliders and rollers.

    The price doesn't seem that high, so I'd love to hear more about your experience with it. Is it quieter throughout the rev range? Any drawbacks compared to rollers and sliders? Also, is it as easy to tweak the weights as with traditional variators? PEACE.
    #12
  13. TheReaper!

    TheReaper! Been here awhile

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    Check with SIP for availability http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/main/base/Home.aspx .

    I didn't notice any "noise" difference with the Big Ruckus , but I did with the Tmax .

    As far as bang for the buck , the jcosta ranks 5 stars in my book . :thumb

    TheReaper!
    #13
  14. Qaz

    Qaz Been here awhile

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    Cortez, why do you think your clutch is slipping? Scooters are really tough and take alot of abuse before something fails. If the clutch was slipping much, it would squeel under any acceleration and most of the time at a steady speed.
    The biggest benefit real or precieved of the J.costa or any performance variator is the shape of the face or ramp surface. The difference between the JC variator and your stock variator with DP sliders would probably be the contour of the face. The quicker the variator pushes the belt to the outside edge the lower the cruising RPM's but also the slower the accelleration. Dr. Pulley tries to compensate for this with their sliders, I am not convince they live up to their billing.
    #14
  15. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    Well that's great again, but doesn't answer any of my specific questions
    from my original post and the posts in which I repeated some of the
    questions.

    But I'll try again.

    I have no doubt that the jcosta perfomance upgrade is huge, BUT, does
    it rev the engine out all the time, even when cruising normally or does it
    keep the revs low unless you gun it? That's my main concern.


    It's gonna be hard to answer for folks running smaller scoots without the
    tach, but..

    And one other thing, I wouldn't dismiss the dr pulley sliders since, again,
    you probably didn't use the EXACT weight that would have put the revs
    at the same revs the jcosta does, which would result in SAME acceleration,
    but the revs would perhaps stay too high even at normal speeds, and I
    don't want that.

    Most youtube videos with jcosta runs show the needle hit the maximum
    power revs at WOT, which is great, and I can make my scoot do that
    even with the stock vario and probably 12-13gr sliders, BUT..

    ..don't want to write the same thing for the 4th or 5th time..
    I guess people don't understand what I'm asking, or choose to ignore the
    question, or just don't know. :cry
    #15
  16. go.duesouth

    go.duesouth Lord of the geeks

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    As I too have a DT, and it does have 30+horses from a 300cc. I'm interested in the same question as Cortez, one that nobody seems to have an answer to. Is the rpm always higher under stable cruising speed?

    I also respectfully disagree with those who think the sliders do nothing, or next to it. I have the 14gr Dr. Pulley's. On my bike, they unequivocally make a marked difference. The bike is better in all aspects of acceleration and better top end cruising. Meaning, it has faster acceleration, more smooth cruising at +70mph and I haven't noticed a decrease in performance in the top end. Slightly higher around town rpm, but haven't noticed much in mpg hits.
    #16
  17. MODNROD

    MODNROD Decisions, decisions

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    No, you're probably right man, and I didn't explain myself properly as well, which never helps.:D

    I got the higher launch revs from the actuation springs, then I got the lower cruise revs from a combination of cam ramp rates, pillow springs AND the addition of the Dr Pulley sliders.

    The J.Costa I know on the Tmax works to reduce cruise revs, probably as you have said due to the ramp rates on the variator. As the Tmax doesn't have an easy way to adjust launch/cruise revs (I don't consider modifying clutch pressure plate weights to vary lock-up an easy mod), you would have to say the J.Costa has the best of both worlds it would seem out of bolt-on bits (but I don't know coz I haven't ridden one yet, just off reports).

    Sorry Cortez, I would love to fly over there and donate my time and spanners to the cause! Perhaps we could find an understanding benefactor who could help us conduct physics experiments (purely for scientific research purposes)on your bike.:lol3
    #17
  18. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    +1 on everything you said.
    I've dropped the 0-60mph time by 2 seconds (11 to 9 roughly) with the
    sliders, and even with the topcase in the second timed run, so it's probably
    more then 2 seconds difference.

    How's your top speed?
    Mine is still struggling to reach 90mph, and usually can't .. 86-87mph at
    7600rpms is about as high as it will go, and I've ridden a test bike with 4k
    miles on the clock and worn rollers that did 93-95mph @ 8600rpm.

    Anyways, the difference between 15.5gr stock weights and 14gr sliders
    is night and day, and I know I can get even better acceleration with 13gr
    sliders, but that would mess up the cruising revs, and that just won't do.

    I've asked about this on other forums too, and all I get "Yeah, jcosta is
    awesome! Amazing performance!" but no one seems to answer ANY of
    my questions.
    :huh
    #18
  19. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    The Tmax is probably setup to rev high from the factory.
    The videos I've seen seem to confirm that.
    Looks like a very good stock setup.

    And then comes the same issue.

    Take what-ever-size-weights are in the Tmax, put in 10% lighter sliders,
    and you've got just what you described - better acceleration, and lower
    cruising revs after about 60mph.

    HOWEVER, wide open throttle with THAT particular setup will probably
    rev the bike out more or less 500revs more then the stock setup WOT,
    and jcosta will rev the engine up to the maximum power revs instantly.

    IF jcosta keeps the revs as low as stock or dr pulley modified setup when
    riding normally/cruising around town, small throttle openings and all that,
    and still manages to bury the needle to the redline at any speed at WOT,
    we've got a winner.

    You CAN NOT make the stock variator do that.
    I'd actually be surprised if jcosta did that as well.

    The only bikes I'm aware of that are capable of doing that have the
    electronically controlled CVT (burgman 650 and aprilia mana).

    Well, jump on the plane and we'll figure the rest out when you get here.
    :freaky
    #19
  20. TheReaper!

    TheReaper! Been here awhile

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    Personally I've never checked the rpm's with stock verses the jcosta , to tell you the truth I really don't care .
    I've seen no difference top end , but a huge difference on take off . Also I burn a little more gasoline , but again
    I don't care about using a little more fuel . I am happy for the trade off because the performance is that much better .
    The only bad thing I've ever heard about the jcosta , is from people who are to cheap to buy one .

    TheReaper!
    #20