JCosta vs Dr Pulley sliders - specific questions!

Discussion in 'Battle Scooters' started by Cortez, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. 1stscoot

    1stscoot iscoot

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    I used to ride a 2006 Majesty, which I installed the JC into and rode it for 10k miles before I sold it. The variator raised the revs pretty across the board, unless I was really light with the throttle. It gave considerably improved low and mid range acceleration, smoothing out juddering or hesitation. Top speed I never got to test, as I was never on long enough of a road to see what it would peg the speedo at, but I got up to 90mph before I ran out of road. I can't remember what the maximum revs it was able to achieve, but it consistently could rev 500-1000 what it normally would do in stock mode. I never hit the rev limiter with the JC, but it got close to red line, which I forget what it was. At highway cruising speeds, it did settle down a bit. Gas mileage did go down 2-3mpg driving conservatively and more if driven aggressively. I never had a problem like what I've read others have experienced with the JC; bell housing cracking, bushing failure, etc., but I think I was at the end of the life on the weights when I got rid of the bike.

    I've also have been contemplating DP sliders for my TMax or the Malossi Multivar 2000 variator. From what I've read in the Malossi manual, you can tune the performance with different weight combo's. Tourist, sport and race. The TMax variator takes 8 rollers total. The Malossi kit provides 2 different weighted sets of 8 rollers. For the tourist setting, you use all 8 of the heavier weights; for the sport setting, you use 4 of each of the different weights, alternating their placement order; in the race setting (with modified exhaust) you use all 8 of the lighter rollers. It also gives 2 shims to put between the half pulley and the hub of the variator to widen the gap for the belt to drop toward the drive shaft more, in effect giving a lower gear ratio to start from which gives even better acceleration and performance than rollers alone. With 2 complete sets of rollers, if you run the sport setting, you have another complete set or rollers as a replacement, effectively doubling the service life before needing to purchase more rollers. The only thing that isn't explained is what Tourist, Sport and Race configurations are like compared to stock. This kit is supposed to be for Sport use on the street and not racing. I'm talking to MalossiUSA asking them all kinds of questions.
    #41
  2. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    Great input, thnx! :freaky

    I'll get my Multivar with 21 gr weights which more or less should pin the
    revs to the redline at any given WOT moment.. which I'm not sure I'll like
    in the long run, if the revs stay too high in normal cruising mode.

    It's an easy fix though with the sliders.
    I wouldn't bother finding the "right" roller combo since you can have a
    wider range with the sliders.

    I've seen what 10% lighter sliders did to my bike compared to stock
    (some 500 revs more up to 65mph, then 500 revs less everywhere,
    and about 1000 revs more at WOT) so I expect the same to happen
    with the multivar.

    ..which brings us to the question.. why the hell didn't I just swap the
    14gr sliders with 13gr sliders?

    I have no idea what the multivar is supposed to do better then the stock
    variator, and no one was able to answer that question - all I got was
    "it'll be faster!". Jesus.
    :huh

    Anyways..
    Anyone who hasn't tried the sliders.. should.. right now.
    It was a great upgrade, and cheap too.

    What I lost in the MPG figures around town, I gained back outside of
    town, and the bike went 2 seconds faster to 62mph, just with 10%
    lighter sliders.
    #42
  3. FoldArt

    FoldArt Been here awhile

    Joined:
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    Just and update on my Dr P Sliders in the Silverwing.

    Went from the J Costa (which was pretty shagged after 16,000 miles and two sets of weights) to 24 gram Dr P's. They were decent, and got me a 55 mpg average on a typical 250 mile trip, but the acceleration was lacking. I went to 21 gram Dr P's and have put some miles on them in the last three weeks. Acceleration on the 21g weights is definitely better than the 24g weight, but still not as good as the J Costa. First tank with the 21g netted 49.7 mpg. Next tankful was actually multiple tankfuls totaling 16.3 gallons and 842 miles on a four day trip in the NC mountains. Average mpg was 51.7. Trip included lots of two laners, Cherohola Skyway, Tale of the Dragon, Highway 28 for those of you familiar with the area.

    I will say that the J Costa variator was noticeably smoother than the stock variator with Sliders of either weight. At any speed I feel vibration through the feet, hands and seat. Its not Harley bad, but a steady and fast vibe. Not enough to make me go out and buy another JC (though, if the price were right, I'd buy one for the performance).

    All things considered, I will probably stick with the 21g Sliders for a while. They are a good blend of price, performance and fuel usage. If anyone else is considering them, I say to go for it. Consider using 20 gram if you want; I doubt it would change your MPG much compared to the 21g Sliders.

    FYI, rpm at various speeds:

    Acceleration at WOT is about 5600 rpm with the 21g; about 5200 rpm with the 24g Sliders.

    Cruise speeds with the 21g Sliders at 50 mph is about 4500 rpm; at 60 mph about 4800-4900 rpm; at 70 mph about 5100-5200 rpm. Speeds are indicated and about 5% optimistic. IIRC, 80 mph is about 5600-5700 rpm. I do not remember exact numbers for the 24g Sliders; I would guess most rpms were about 200 lower.
    #43
  4. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    That's interesting, rather small changes between 21 and 24.. I've seen reports of a lot bigger differences between different sliders on the Downtown 300, but no one bothered taking notes and was certain about what they had to say.

    I'll try the multivar 2000 with regular malossi rollers next, which I know will
    have the revs bouncing off the limiter at WOT, and try to tone it down from
    there if needed with heavier sliders.

    Thanks for the input!

    p.s. Speking of MPG figures, I just got 73MPG on the last 2 up ride. :lol3
    #44
  5. Phipsd

    Phipsd Been here awhile

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    I would be willing to bet that when you have another 15000 km on your bike it will be much faster and more responsive than it is now even if you did nothing. I noticed a big difference on my 263 SYM when I hit 8000 km and now at 18000 km the bike is that much more responsive again and it's bone stock.

    I can accelerate on hills at highway speeds that the bike used to labor on. It runs so much better that I realize that my engine was still quite tight even when I thought it was broken in.

    At 5000 km the bike was slow compared to now.
    #45
  6. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    I just did over 2000km on the last 4 day ride and the bike DID get faster.

    Today I installed the Malossi Multivar CVT, and it made some difference.
    Let's say it made as much difference as going from stock to 10% lighter
    Dr Pulleys did.

    Definately not worth almost $300.
    I'll try fine tuning the multivar with dr pulley sliders too and see what I get,
    but from what I see now, I could have went 1gr lighter on the stock CVT
    and get 90% of the multivar improvement.

    It's hard to keep the revs low now, and the bike is running at too high
    revs at speeds over 65-70mph for any (IMHO) long rides.

    Again, nothing that Dr Pulley won't fix.
    #46
  7. MODNROD

    MODNROD Decisions, decisions

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    Gday Cortez.
    So the DP sliders were equivalent to about 90% of the Multivar's performance?
    Did you get around to trying heavier DP sliders in the Multivar to sort out the revs?
    Did you ever try HEAVIER than stock DP sliders in the standard variator to keep the same accel but trying to gain some top speed?

    All leading questions of course! :D I would normally throw in some lighter DP sliders and a thicker Kevlar belt on any ride and call the transmission done, but with the new little toy I'm specifically after an increased top cruising speed, and couldn't care less about how long it takes to get there. At the moment the choices are a Polini 9-roller (supposed to gain a few more kph on most tests) or slightly heavier-than-stock DP sliders with the Kevlar belt.
    #47
  8. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    Helloes!
    That's simplifying things a bit, but from 0-60mph, yes.

    The difference in 30-50mph, 40-60mph and similar real world
    accelerations is always better with the multivar, even the way it's
    setup now (0-60 time same as with stock cvt and sliders).

    Punching out the rear and powersliding was almost never possible
    with the stock CVT, but even with as heavy rollers as possible in the
    multivar, it'll pick up the revs so fast that traction on crappy city roads
    is an issue (we got some roads here that are like bathroom ceramic
    tiles).

    Yes!
    Twice!

    The Multivar comes with a set od 20gr rollers which made the bike
    rev out to 8000 at WOT. I replaced them with 23gr Dr Pulley sliders
    which resulted in 7500 revs at WOT, still a bit higher then I hoped.
    Just recently, I bought a set of cheapo 25gr rollers and that did the
    trick. Now at WOT it's usually around 7000, but sometimes it will
    still shoot past that mark. What I CAN do now, but couldn't do before
    is cruise around town at 4500-5000 revs.. with 23gr sliders it was
    impossible to get revs below 5500, and they were usually above
    6000. Add 500 revs for the 20gr rollers.

    The only issue that I have now is high speed cruising, since I don't
    have Dr Pulley sliders now but regular rollers.

    With the 23gr sliders the revs at 85MPH were lower then what I
    have now with 25gr rollers.

    At 75mph for example, I've got 6800-7000 revs at the tach now,
    which is about the same as the stock setup would run at (that's
    stock cvt and 15.5gr weights). The whole idea behind tuning was
    trying to get a faster 0-60 time and lower revs at speeds above
    65mph.

    Stock bike would have done 0-60mph in 11 seconds, and now it's
    sometimes even under 9 seconds with the 25gr weights in multivar.
    It was about the same with 23gr sliders, and revs at 75MPH were
    also the same.

    Just near the top speed the revs would drop a tiny bit with 23gr sliders
    compared to the 25gr rollers.

    The top speed with all of these setups is virtually the same - 90mph.
    20gr rollers = 8700revs bouncing of the limiter.
    23gr sliders = 8000revs, won't go over without wind or downhill slope
    25gr rollers = 8500revs - still too high.

    The fastest I've seen this scoot go was with the stock CVT setup,
    around 95mph at 8500-8600.

    For high speed cruising the stock CVT + 14gr sliders was the best
    setup (that's 10% lighter then stock rollers at 15.5gr).

    That setup would give a consistent 500 revs lower reading at anything
    over 65mph, read: 6500 at 75mph.

    I'll just throw this out one more time, the stock bike at WOT would do
    5500 revs, and with 10% lighter sliders it would run at 6500 revs
    (huge subjective difference in acceleration, no surprise considering that
    the bike has 4hp more here and 6500e is also the torque peak).

    24.5 or 25gr sliders in the multivar will be my last attempt, and I'm
    confident it'll do what I need (probably a bit snappier off the line then
    25gr rollers, and I'll be happy with 200-300 revs less at 75mph).


    Heavier then stock would result in worse acceleration, and worse top
    speed. Don't even have to try it to be sure of this.

    What makes the CVT "pick" it's revs is the weight of the rollers or
    sliders. The sliders just engage a bit faster, but 15.5 grams (that's stock)
    will do 5500 revs at WOT, be it rollers or sliders.

    The top speed thing - the idea behind dr pulley sliders is that you get
    lower revs at the last third of how fast your scoot will go. Considering
    that 14gr sliders in stock CVT (again, 10% LIGHTER then stock) already
    has the result of loosing about 3-4mph at the top, going heavier would
    drop it by a lot more.

    Again, with the stock weights at 75mph, you're at 7000 revs.
    The power tops out at 8000. With the stock setup, you can usually
    reach 8000, sometimes above. With 14gr sliders, 7000 revs is
    80mph, and that's a lot of wind resistance there already, and what
    happens with my huge windscreen and huge topcase is that sometimes
    that's all she's got.

    I did manage to hit 95mph once going downhill and that was around 8000
    revs. It DID keep that speed at level ground after that though.

    Scoots with more torque might respond differently, the kymco g5 300 is
    specific here because of it's lower displacement and rather high revving
    nature so it's probably reacting a lot more to these CVT changes then
    a 400cc/30hp scooter would.

    Like I said, heavier DP sliders won't work.
    Even going the same weight will most likely drop a few mph from the top.

    If low revs is what you're after forget all those performance CVTs too,
    they all make the bikes rev a lot more and it's very hard to tame them
    down, but I'm getting there.

    In the end, I'll probably end up with a setup that will return 0-60 and top
    speed just like the stock CVT with 10% lighter sliders had, and just a
    couple % more performance in between, and that certainly not worth
    the asking price for the malossi multivar (and 3-4 sets of weights that
    I had to buy in the process).
    #48
  9. MODNROD

    MODNROD Decisions, decisions

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    thanks Cortez, good testing as always, much appreciated. :freaky
    #49
  10. Cortez

    Cortez BAZINGA!

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    :freaky
    #50