Kick-starting LC4 with dead battery?

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by magli, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. bmwktmbill

    bmwktmbill Traveler

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    Anybody strong enough in electricity to venture a guess on the capacitor?
    The question wasn't just for gaspipe.
    Bill.
    #21
  2. njgearhead

    njgearhead Adventurer

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    I have a degree in computer engineering, if you PM the schematic I'd be glad to give you my input.
    #22
  3. gaspipe

    gaspipe Wandering Soul Super Moderator

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    The LC4 uses the same size battery as a Honda CB600. These are the ones I usually get, and I put in a new one before every long trip on the LC4.

    Cheap BATTERY

    Also, I'm not an electrical engineer, but IMHO, the capacitor is there to smooth out the power, not provide power for the ignition. It's too small of a capacitor. The point is, I doubt anyone can kick over the bike fast enough for the stator to provide enough energy to light off the ignition.
    #23
  4. Jan from Finland

    Jan from Finland Registered

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    Interesting! I just wonder if one 9V D-type battery would be enough?

    A capasitor is not the solution, because it discharges itself over time. Especially if you have 'slow' short-circuit in the system as I had when the battery went flat.
    #24
  5. Flatulator

    Flatulator Banned

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    You got that right

    I would never buy one now that I know that - just for that reason.

    Any bike with any dirt pretensions had better start and run with a DEAD battery.

    kick and go
    #25
  6. gaspipe

    gaspipe Wandering Soul Super Moderator

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    Not defending KTM at all since some of KTM's philosophies and mine are at odds, but if the battery crapped out in the woods - *you* also have some 'splaining to do. All in all, the e-start LC4's are dual sport bikes.

    The funny thing is the KLR and the Husky TE610 *will* bump start easily enough with a dead battery, and have no kick starter at all. I've never tried to bump start an e-start LC4 with a dead battery, but kicking it is not possible. Will the XR650L and the DR650 bump start - neither have a kicker?

    And I can kick start anything....just not an LC4 with a dead battery.
    #26
  7. njgearhead

    njgearhead Adventurer

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    IMHO the kickstarter is useless if it cannot start the bike with a dead battery. They might as well take out the mechanism completely and save a few lbs. I own a DR650 and in my experience its not that easy to bump start on loose traction, perhaps its my technique but nevertheless it WILL definitly bump start on a dead battery.

    That being said, if the kicker wont start the bike, neither will bump starting which tells me that the DR, KLR, and 99% of other dirt bikes out there are more suitable for emergency startups then the KTM with the kickstarter. What a scam. :deal If I had this model KTM i'd want my money back.
    #27
  8. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

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    It's hardly useless. If an otherwise working battery is run down to where it won't start the bike the kicksarter works just fine. I've done this on many occasions.
    The bike apparently won't start when the battery is completely fried- but I've never seen the problem.
    #28
  9. cjracer

    cjracer AWD please!!

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    I have bump started my 2000 LC4, when I left the key on. So it is possible.:D
    #29
  10. gaspipe

    gaspipe Wandering Soul Super Moderator

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    Well, there ya have it. It will bump on a dead battery.
    #30
  11. ChrisC

    ChrisC Amal sex?

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    Yeah... fuck.... I want my money back too :cry .... :norton
    #31
  12. bmwktmbill

    bmwktmbill Traveler

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    This from Sommer KTM on kickstarting with reduced voltage:

    "good morning,

    starting (kick) an adventure 640 (or all LC4) with dead battery (reduced voltage / V) will be very, very hard, because you need full 12V Voltage (reduced ampere is allowed - so for example a little Volume 12 V battery (with 3 or 4...A) will work for kicking.

    So you need 12 Volt .

    Finally it is possible, but you have to kick a lot of time and if there is enough luck, you will get Voltage for first ( Zünderregung "ignition impulse") .

    Mit sportlichen Grüßen
    SOMMER KTM Rainer Kroll"
    #32
  13. mongox

    mongox ARRRRGH!!!

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    Perhaps the capacitor is just there as a filter to shunt any noise (AC from the charging system ) to ground. This is probably the most common use of capacitors for electronics, not energy storage but for clean DC signal. It could be simply there to meet FCC requirements. (so you don't mess with peoples radios and such.)
    #33
  14. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

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    Executive summary: Turn off your headlight.


    This afternoon I decided to take a look at this problem. My bike is an '02 640 ADV, and I have never had any trouble kick starting it. My 'drill' is: turn it on and kick it. It usually takes 1-3 kicks to start. I had a theory about what the problem was which I won't share with you because I was able to prove it wrong.

    Anyway, I disconnected the battery, turned off the headlights (HIDs) and it started on the third kick. After a little experimentation, I discovered that it won't start unless I start the kick at TDC. If I take the time to find TDC, it always starts. When I kick it the taillight and instrument cluster lights come on -for about a second if it doesn't start.

    So what's the problem with everyone else's bike? Incandecent headlights, that's what. I hooked up the stock H1 bulb to the low beam and turned it on. The bike wouldn't start. No way. I got a slight orange glow out of the headlight filiment, and that's it.


    So, If your battery is dead enough that the bike won't kick start, just turn off the headlight -or unplug it if you don't have a switch. You may also have to disconnect the battery (just unscrew the ground lead) - I don't know if a dead battery is too much of a load.


    So now that I have the gist of things, what are the specifics? I measured the current in the +12V lead of the CDI box. It draws 55mA when the motor is stalled, and 150-175mA at idle. The current goes up when the motor revs, but I don't know how far, because my meter tops out at 200mA. This is less than 1/2 Watt.

    I hooked up an external power supply to the +12V lead, and found that the CDI will work with a supply voltage as low as 5.3V.

    I measured the +12V when I kicked the bike over, and found that the voltage was 9.5-11.8V with the taillight and instruments as a load, and dropped to 3.5-4.5V when a headlight was added to the load.

    So basically, the kickstarter has more than enough power to fire the ignition, it just can't power the headlight as well.
    #34
  15. gaspipe

    gaspipe Wandering Soul Super Moderator

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    Thanks, Luke. Time for those in the need to plumb in a master electrical switch.

    We'll all be relieved to know that njgearhead can sleep soundly tonight.
    #35
  16. warewolf

    warewolf Tyre critic

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    KISS! Retrofit a normal KTM headlight switch if your bike came without one.
    #36
  17. BlitzBike

    BlitzBike LC4 Pilot

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    Got a part number on that "normal" KTM headlight switch?
    #37
  18. warewolf

    warewolf Tyre critic

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    #38
  19. BlitzBike

    BlitzBike LC4 Pilot

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    I'm aware of that parts fische but,
    that will only show me the american controls that have no "off" switch for the headlights. Need a specific part number.
    #39
  20. Stu

    Stu Buffo Maximus

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    Part Numbers:

    head light switch CEV, p/n 503.110.70.000 (the Aussie part ends in .100)
    flasher switch CEV, p/n 503.110.29.000

    Make sure these come with (mine were in the two boxes with the above):
    dummy plug (if you remove the flasher switch), p/n 583.110.64.000
    2 hex nuts, p/n 0934.040.003
    2 phillips head screws, p/n 0084.040.223
    2 flat head screws, p/n 0985.040.163
    plastic adapter for flash switch, p/n 130.110.70.060 (goes between two switch assemblies on handlebar).

    Stu
    #40