KTM LC8 Exhaust and Auxillary Tank

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by neduro, Jan 20, 2008.

  1. neduro

    neduro Addict Super Moderator

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    This isn't technically a business yet, but since I'm considering it, I thought I'd start a Vendor thread about it.

    I want more fuel capacity for both my 950 SE and Adventure, and after lots of poking around, the preferred alternative I can see is making a 2 into 1 exhaust, and replacing the other exhaust with a fuel tank. Both the Adventure and SE are already a bit front heavy (the Adventure much more so than SE) which rules out a bigger front tank.

    The design parameters for the rear tank would be that it had to work with all common luggage racks and passenger pegs, it has to provide at least 2 additional gallons, it has to weigh less than stock when empty (including the exhaust on the other side) and it can't sacrifice power.

    I believe that one tank shape can be made to work on both SE and Adventure (and presumably SM, although that's pure speculation for the moment on my part), with different 2->1's required for each application.

    Here's a post about the project from Orange Crush:

    If you're interested in this project, please let me know. If the response is strong, I'd be more willing to invest in a way to produce these for a reasonable cost (ie, take the risk on buying a mold).
    #1
  2. The Fist

    The Fist Knulp

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    Hell yes Im interested.
    #2
  3. Dirt2007

    Dirt2007 Long timer

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    I would be interested. What are you thinking on getting the fuel to the engine?
    #3
  4. neduro

    neduro Addict Super Moderator

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    Both SE's and ADV's have a low pressure line that runs between tank lobes, with a petcock on both ends. I will T into that line.
    #4
  5. wsdbikes

    wsdbikes New Max is Mad

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    i'd be interested in this also. I fabbed up a prototype 2-1 for my SM that worked ok. need a custom mid-pipe for it though and the Yosh can i used was too loud for my.
    the extra tank capacity would be great though if it is realistically priced. One tank design could work for SE ADV and SM with bracketry for each if necessary.
    really good idea though. keep us posted
    #5
  6. allengt

    allengt Adventurer

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    Sounds like you have the correct design criteria. I would hope that it would not be too loud. I would still like to be a semi-nice neighbor! :D Let us know when you have a rough estimate of the cost.
    #6
  7. Max Kool

    Max Kool Xtankteam™

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    You are doing a great job! we are doing sort of the same for the Xchallenge.


    Keep up the good work!
    #7
  8. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Goeie Grys Giftige Gert!

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    I have run the costs for a roto mould down here in SAfrica, where it would be cheaper to make the mould and then run it and make tanks, than in America.

    If youre interested, I have all the people researched who would make it a proper venture.

    I decided against doing it, rather concentrating on other businesses. But to give you an idea, to tool the mould will cost about R80000, which works to be about $11500 odd.

    Cool.
    #8
  9. tn-steve

    tn-steve Addicted

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    I'm interested - 950 Adventure.
    #9
  10. PackMule

    PackMule love what you do Super Moderator

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    Holy f*ck!



    :lurk
    #10
  11. Meathead

    Meathead tin man

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    :lurk
    #11
  12. neduro

    neduro Addict Super Moderator

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    I finally got a chance to check the 2->1 shown above on a dyno. To do it, I had to venture into the heart of darkness...

    [​IMG]

    Very nice folks, actually! We decided I should swap my worn 908 for a scorpion for the dyno, they came out to watch me change the tire and were bug-eyed when I pulled off a sub 10 minute swap in the cold. I got a private chuckle out of that, not sure how often they see that from their dentist crowd...

    Into the war room:

    [​IMG]

    Pull the pin and stand back:

    [​IMG]

    I tested the bike 3 ways. Everything else, jetting, tire pressure, etc, remained the same otherwise.

    1) 2 into 1, neptune exhaust, baffle out.
    2) 2 into 1, neptune exhaust, baffle in.
    3) 2 into 2, neptune exhausts, baffles in.

    I would have liked to test more variations, but this ain't free.

    Pictures speak louder than words:

    [​IMG]

    The answer is a resounding hell-yeah. Peak horsepower was made with the 2 into 1 installed, baffle out, and the 2 into 2 and 2 into 1 with baffle(s) in were within 6/10ths of a hp peak.

    There are some additional changes in character that are more important, in my opinion.

    First, the 2 into 1 options seemed to perform better below 5k RPM, with somewhere between 1 and 4 more pound feet of torque. From the saddle, this feels apparent, with a smoother bottom than stock, somewhere that is commonly useful.

    Second, the 2 into 2 option really only has an advantage from about 5 to 7k RPM, where it in turn makes 1-4 more lb/ft. This is the "hit" that is apparent from the saddle on the stock bike, which is considerably smoothed by the 2 into 1, not only because of the minor loss in this area but also because it's stronger below, so the gains present are less apparent.

    On pavement, the 5k hit is fun to "surf", but in the dirt, IMO, the more linear the power the better, as it makes it easier to retain connection with the rear tire. The bike still has plenty of go at these revs, to sacrifice a few pound feet up here in exchange for a smooth characteristic is a worthy tradeoff, again IMO. :D

    On top (7k up), there isn't much between them. Baffled vs. baffled, they are very close. Unbaffled 2 into 1 beats them both, and I suspect unbaffled 2 into 2 would equal or beat that. Anyway, I don't ride there much, so that it's within a few is all that's important to me.

    Jetting was as we ran it in Baja (too rich) and was not changed between the 3 pulls.

    So, the power of this system is arguably better than stock, depending on what you're looking for, but the biggest advantage to me is the weight loss. Stock cans weigh 11 lbs EACH, up high, and as far from center of mass as possible. Aftermarket cans vary between about 5 lbs and about 9 lbs. A 2 into 1 system loses that weight instantly, as well as freeing space for a tank, a map tube, whatever.


    I was impressed enough with this outcome to think there's a product here, hence my posting in Vendors. I spoke to some buddies that run a racecar shop, and they turned me on to a fabricator who can produce these. I sent him the prototype, and finally got a quote back for a low production volume, which I need to decide whether to give the go ahead on.

    The offering would be a 2 into 1 that looks exactly like this:

    [​IMG]

    Installed:

    [​IMG]

    This will fit any muffler that bolts to the stock "H" pipe, including stock of course. It will use all stock mounting points.

    The piece for sale would not made from pieces of a stocker, obviously.

    Instead of the crappy chroming of stock, this would be jet-hot coated, which will never blue, is easy to clean, promotes good flow characteristics, and so forth. The price would be $225 shipped in the US.

    Some changes will have to be made to fit an adventure, I haven't tested these yet but they would be on top of my list to do. There would be an offering for both SE and ADV owners in any case. The SM is different, so no love there.

    If you're interested and/or have questions, please let me know either with a post here, or a PM, or an email from my profile. I intend to make a decision fairly quickly, and once I do, the pieces would be 6-8 weeks out, so still in time for riding season.

    :ricky
    #12
  13. gweaver

    gweaver NorCal is Best Cal!

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    Not trying to hijack, but what single can exhaust would you recommend? I'm running stockers, but plan to upgrade soon. If I hold out for your 2-1 mod, is there a single sided exhaust that fits (from some other bike), or would I have to buy a 950 aftermarket exhaust and just use one side? Does that make sense?

    G
    #13
  14. neduro

    neduro Addict Super Moderator

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    Makes sense- it's something I need to investigate.

    One idea is that I think all exhausts that mount with a strap (vs an integrated mount) could be used on either side, so if your buddy has Akros or something along those lines, you can buy one from him if you both go 2 - 1.

    It's my intention to investigate buying single cans from a vendor, but I haven't done it yet.

    :thumb
    #14
  15. cjracer

    cjracer AWD please!!

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    Great info Ned. You've done a great job w/ this.:thumb I like the idea of running a single pipe now that you have proof that there is very little power loss across the board. I'd like to make a tube to hold tube/tire repair stuff or whatever seeing as how I have the Aqualine tanks for larger range. I'd be interested in a 2-1 pipe for the Adv.

    Keep up the good work. :clap
    #15
  16. gweaver

    gweaver NorCal is Best Cal!

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    So...anyone interested in going halfsies on a set? Or if anyone's interested in this swap and wants to sell me a used can? If Neduro's looking at a 6-8 week lead, we have some time.

    G
    #16
  17. Nowwhat

    Nowwhat I'll Go Second...

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    What were the rwhp and trq numbers?......do you have the full graph so we can see the #'s vs. the rpm?....

    without the 2-2 with the baffles out graph this test doen't really show an apples to apples test.....
    #17
  18. Cigar Mike

    Cigar Mike Too Old and Too Slow

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    neduro,

    What are the dimensions of the stock muffler and the aftermarket muffler you might use? What is the volume?

    I have added and extra emergency tank on my wifes XT225. I fabricated it with the intension of making the bike look had it had dual exhaust. I fabricated a 2" oval to look similar to a FMF muffler. if the volume is close to what you are looking to add with the muffler volume it is a very simple fabrication out of sheet alumminum or pipe.

    I made this out on stainless since the pipe shop has the material handy.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I thought I could purchase the end cap from FMF to make it look right but found out I could not. I was hopping that I could run a fuel line to the carb, but the tank seemed too low. This gives about a 1/2 gallon extra fuel which extends the range about 30 miles.

    If I remember correctly (don't have my pipe chart handy) 4" pipe about a ft long should give you about 1 1/2 gallons. I need to check, but it sounds about right. 4" pipe has 4 times the volume of 2" pipe.

    For what it's worth. And as I look at this post. Way more information then you need.

    Cigar Mike
    #18
  19. Desert Yeti

    Desert Yeti Been here awhile

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    Just put a new set of Akra's on mine, I'll be interested in selling one once the 2-1 Y pipe is released :) Send me a PM.
    #19
  20. Kieth

    Kieth Been here awhile

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    I am interested in a 2 into one Y for a 950 adventure. Let me know when you need dollars. I am interested in the 2 gallon fuel tank also, I have a friend who knows about roto moulding should I ask him about mold costs, they are usually less than other molds. Kieth in Tulsa 918-446-2245
    #20