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Discussion in 'Vendors' started by woody's wheel works, Mar 17, 2005.
Thank you for your input. But I still have a couple questions:
1. Are you saying you will be building complete new tubless wheels for KTM 950? If so, will they be vailable on standard sizes?
2. Or are you saying that you will seal standard KTM 950 wheels for tubeless?
what i am saying is:
1.we will only make wheels tubeless if they have the safety bead in them...and that can be done with a broad range of custom wheels that can currently be built...we can enhance the chances of you not having to dicker with tightening your spokes and thus ruining your sealed rim by having it SUPERLACED,,,we are evaluating if it is feasible to re-invent the 950 wheels using the GS BMW series technology
2.what has worked before in most riding situatons is being challenged by two new demands placed on the existing rim sealing technology......first,,the use of tire warmers by supermotard/road racers which raises the rim temperatures far above 'normal' use...causing the sealant to soften and then separate from the rim due to centrifugal forces
and second,,,the lower tire pressures being run by the off-road enthusiasts....i think that's why KTM designed that lip as added insurance to keep the tire from slipping off at lower pressures,,,we have machined/changed the profile of the safety bead for those riders that demanded easier tire changing capabilities...
i can write several pages on the many factors that are involved in making rims tubeless...there are so many ..the obvious like correct rim selection and IMMACULATELY prepping/cleaning the rim and nipples are easy,,it's the little stuff,,,ie..spoke and nipple selection...ss spokes and ss nipples wow great!!...not so fast...if ya don't use the special anti-seize jism provided,,ya can't tighten em adequately and they gall and seize on ya,,use it and try to go tubeless and the jism slowly works its way between rim and sealant compromising the seal...and on and on
in perusing more and more threads related to the trials and tribulations of the adventure riders and their new mounts/wheel issues,,i have to pause and digress a few moments...and share some notions with you...
in creating solutions we have to constantly balance our objectives within the parameters we can live with,,,and they can be as varied as how much am i willing to pay for this,,,,will this set me up for a lawsuit in litiguous america,,,,am i sacrificing safety for that added edge in competition,,,,etc
nuff said..it is of to work,,woody
The supermoto guys are now using spoke nippples that are threaded into the rim with small "O" rings on them to seal individual niples.
Thanks, Woody, for a cogent post on the subject! I've often wondered why one couldn't just seal the spoke nipples and run tubeless, but your insight clears that up.
hi,,,this is the direction we have been leaning towards,,,can you put me in touch with the folks using that technique???...just to make sure we are on the same wavelength....''threaded in to the rim " has me curious because once ya thread into the rim,,,how do ya true???...holler amd thanks ,,woody
BUMP for some folks lookin for reason why not to try convet tube to tubeless tires - thanks for the heads up on the rim differences woody
ps - the MacDonald's woman is cited often in tort reform discussions but rarely do people know why she won. She won because Micky D's spec'ed out 200 degree coffee in cups only rated for 120 degrees; the bottom literally fell out (it didn't "spill"). IMO, MD was liable for that stupidity. Most of the other tort reform examples have been fabricated: check snopes.com - and don't believe the hype!
Once I get the 950, I'd be interested in getting a spare set of wheels so that I can swap out quickly between road and more dirt orientated tires.
One of the big sticking points for me with the Adventure are the tubed tires and limited tire choices.
Anybody got any experience running BMW GS size wheels on the 950, using (for example) ME Tourances?
ps - the MacDonald's woman is cited often in tort reform discussions but rarely do people know why she won. She won because Micky D's spec'ed out 200 degree coffee in cups only rated for 120 degrees; the bottom literally fell out (it didn't "spill"). IMO, MD was liable for that stupidity. Most of the other tort reform examples have been fabricated: check snopes.com - and don't believe the hype![/QUOTE]
thanks for correcting me on that..i have been trying to edit it out,,,but don't know how to rectify it eveywhere....sorry,,,woody
i can change and seal rims to accomodate your need for tubeless tires,,,
for example...for the front...Sun 21"-2.15" with safety bead ,,,seal it ,,use conti TKC-80 TL (TL=tubeless),,for the more off road than road riders......or switch to (19"-2.50' for the full range of tubeless tires developed for the BMW GS crowd)
for the rear,,,switch to either a 17'-3.50(for more dirt than street use)...or 17-4.25" (more street than dirt use)
Hi Woody, I want to thank you for all the GREAT WORK you have done for me over all these years....
Hope you are riding this spring, and often....
About sealing wheels.
ME and a friend just had our rear wheels sealed in California, we are from texas, so shipping and all.. that..
The wheels came back looking great.
Mine came off at about 90 on the highway. in a split second no warning at all, I got it stopped thanks God... call my friend to tell him about it his came apart a week after.. Becarefull who you use to seal your rims..... that can be dangerous.
hi john,,,this is the stuff i've been forewarning about,,,,please clue us in on who performed this service and how much...do you have pictures???before and after????..did they give you a warranty or refund????...did they seal rims that had the safety bead on them or not???? what bikes were they on????holler and thank you,,woody
adventure riders et al....these incidents trouble me...here's why...along with some pros and cons
1- i see so many wheels sealed that do not have tubeless tire rims with the safety bead on them....this reduces the extra little safety factor of the tires popping off the bead that safety beaded rims enjoy....HOWEVER... the risk involved is the same as running a tire with a tube...your tire will essentially deflate and eventually do all the same stuff...
2- what concerns me is the variables known and unknown that may cause failure:
a..the preparation and quality control of the folks sealing your wheels,,
b...improper surface preparation,,,,
c...people using tire warmers(like supermotard racers),,,,,,
d...riders using high pressure car washers to clean their wheels(at
...2000+ psi that could contribute to loosening the seal),,,
e...moisture buildup and heat/freezing/thawing cycles could start
...the delamination process,,,
f...centrifugal force at higher speeds will want to fling the sealing
g..will the anti seize compound needed to keep ss spokes and
...ss nipples from seizing contribute to softening the sealer??,,,,
h..what about chewing up the sealer when someone gouges the
...sealant with a tire iron???
i..what if someone tightens their spokes and doesn't reseal the wheel????
j..the litiguous nature of the american experience,,,and the ability of
certain legal types to get around every disclaimer..no matter what
and that's just off the top of my head,,,PLEASE help me add to this list!!!
3-so knowing what i know,,,i have decided to only seal rims....
... designed with safety beads
...using proven technology
...for folks going normal highway speeds (in usa,circa 75mph +9mph),,,
...no more supermotard racers with tire warmers...
...to folks that are realistic about their expectatations and needs
4-the PROs of going tubeless on rims designed for tubeless tires are:
a..mostly running cooler tire temperatures,enhanced tire life,,,
b..a more gradual loss of air due to small punctures,,,
c..easy to plug a nail or thorn externally (so you can get to the next place to properly repair your tire with a T-patch,,,BE ADVISED...external plugs and tire sealants are TEMPORARY fixes !!!)
5-the CONs of going tubeless on sealed wire wheels are:
a..that at very low tire pressures you could pop off the bead,,,
b..that riders think they are invincible and forget that there is a sealant bonded to their rim that is trying to fling off at high speeds,,,,
c..that major hits and slashes/gashes to sidewalls will create a blowout that is similar to tubed tires,,,,
d...that you will have to carry beefy spare tubes to possibly repair just in case,,,,
e..that it is slightly tougher to R&R your tire because of the safety bead,,,and if you own a late model KTM Adventure you could die trying to R&R that rear tire (because of the ultra high safety bead)
so in conclusion...CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!.....
i have NOT quit riding or racing motorcycles because they still come with tubed tires...OR with tubeless tires
i weigh the merits of any deviation from the OEM product...
i weigh the parameters that come along with these modifications/upgrades ...
i find technicians/companiesthat can deliver a good product/service at a fair price in a timely manner AND that will back up their work,,,,
i give someone who has done the above the benefit of the doubt if things go awry ...to rectify the mistakes,,,,,
i also do not give someone who is incompetent another chance at touching my stuff
PLEASE feel free to chime in on this subject...and you legal types out there ...what do i need to do to cover my ass for providing this service ???
holler and thanks,,,woody
I've owned 3 sets of rims from Woody's and they are top quality. I've also sent him rims that I have "dorked up" over the years and he and his team have always rovided me great service.
are these any good?
i can get them for around £1000 via the ktm forum in uk