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Discussion in 'Sports' started by Green Stainz, Sep 6, 2005.
My apologies, I mistook you for a troll when you are really an asshole.
Cool story Bro.
Oh educated one,
Surely at least some of the 'witnesses' will end up writing books or articles that should lay out the 'evidence'. I use those two words with caution because unless and until what they say convinces me, I will give LA the benefit of the doubt. In my career I crossed paths with many people who lied to save their own backsides at the expense of their friends or accomplices. Do I believe LA's team mates? Not without corroboration that is irrefutable. That may be a high bar but anything less would still leave a reasonable doubt, the standard by which we judge guilt.
The comparison with the Sandusky case doesn't fit. Those witnesses weren't testifying to salvage their careers or reputations.
1- we don't know what hincapie was going to testify. like pettite, it may have been "i think i heard...but i could be wrong." um, ok.
2- see highlights. i think lance cheated. to be as certain as you, i'd like to see a failed test or testimony from someone who has nothing to gain.
Big fan of cycling and I idolized Lance, I really did. Not any more
As for him never having failed a test, he has but he found some bullshit way to get out of it - I forget the full details and I'm just too fucking jaded to go look but I seem to recall it involved a backdated prescription. How convenient.
This is an interesting read. Tygart sounds like an idiot of the highest order.
He simply wanted Lance to meet with him, grovel publicly, and kiss his ring.
Then he would bestow upon him the victories he earned.
He still claims to have stripped away his wins, when he has no power to do so.
You guys take your shoes off before somebody slips and hits their head on the coffee shop table.
+1 Hey, hey that about sums this thread up.
Did vs did not. Who besides the lycra clad posers even cares now?
I respect the man for hammering down and beating a bunch of dope fiends 7X. He rode the ride, decided what he needed to do to win, and will need to live with it (the alleged doping) for the rest of his life.
Pretty big burden IMO. Paying the piper.
LA was a world class performer in a tainted sport. I accept it and don't give a rats ass other than I'd like to see his 40 year old triathlon racing results.
I stood in the park across from the Philadelphia Art Museum during the CoreStates PRO championship and every time Lance came by I cheered him with the same intensity I cheered Lemond when he was racing the Tour. When we heard Lance attacked on the Wall we were all giddy.
I feel like dolt.
Over the years he's proved himself no hero and I still think he's done his share to take cycling in the wrong direction-- that is, he's created a bunch of Tour watchers who every excuse and rationalisation why an elite rider can't attempt more than one grand tour or seriously race for the Monuments. And, quite honestly, I think he brought doping and the masking of it to new heights.
cool story bro.
Why do you feel like a dolt? You were cheering a great athletic event, and a great cyclist showing his stuff. Is there proof he was doping at the Corestates? That would have led to you feeling personally let down?
You also write: Over the years he's proved himself no hero : maybe not to you, but to many he is. I am no fanboy, believe me, but there are lots of people who think highly of him, for the hope they gave him. Good for them.
And you write: And, quite honestly, I think he brought doping and the masking of it to new heights
No, you are imagining he did this, you, like everyone else, do not know. If anybody did high quality masking, it was some chemist that aided a doctor. I don't think any cyclist has the knowledge of chemistry to pull that off.
We get it, you hate Lance for letting you down and destroying cycling as you think it should be. For arguments sake, if Lance never raced, the same situations would be going on with other top level cyclists. This is the drama of sport when there is fame and money at stake.
1. incorrect. I'm drawing conclusions from a body of evidence. A lot of the evidence is circumstancial-- doesn't mean it isn't evidence. You're correct, there were people behind the chemistry, and Lance's 465,000 dollar payment made to Dr. Ferrari in 2006 (yeah, that late) along continued meetings with him until 2010 (yeah, just two years ago) are just two examples how Lance helped propel that science. Lance was ahead of the curve. How many reasonable people believe that Lance was actually clean? You seriously can't assert that, can you?
2. Incorrect. I dislike Lance for being rude and for being arrogant. For not only doping but for pounding his chest and threatening and bullying and insisting that he never, ever doped and thay he would never consider it. He didn't fail to comment. He didn't try to obfuscate. He went like a volcano at the mere suggestion. That sort of duplicity removes any chance of 'hero' status.
I think he did a good job at turning the sport into a Tour only season with a bunch of warm ups. And I would like to hear you put forth a reasonable argument otherwise. Certainly this cannot be a healthy thing for real cycling fans?
3. Please don't drag this conversion into the logic sewer. Conjecture based on a hypothetical is not allowed.
It's kinda like a 'hope' almost. Like you hope there are predetermined destinies (sp? Not sure of the spelling because destiny is so rarely plural) which will explain events and, hopefully, for the better? I suppose that is reassuring in a way.
I see it this way:
We live in a gently indifferent universe which has no plans and doesn't exert any force, good nor bad, on our lives. Not very reassuring but a lot easier to explain given my life experience.
Actually, this is a huge thing. I live in Baltimore - I don't live in a bad neighborhood, but there's one about a block away. This old drunk guy with a little dog comes staggering down the walk and has a 10 minute conversation with me about what a load of BS it is that they're trying to get Lance again.
And this little old 90 year old lady at the church also had a convo with me about what an inspirational figure he is and how she thought it was terrible that 'That man' was out trying to get him.
A lot of people care about this, and the majority of them that I have met think that Lance is getting screwed.
Thoughts on doping...
How do you race like that on 2 liters of water?
They have drug free body building contests. I don't see why other sports can't do the same.
I don't think he raced clean, but he did not test positive. For the letter of the law at the time, since he passed the tests, well, he may have beat the system, so don't go after him now. What's the point? In the scope of starving children or cancer victims, well, who cares what he did? Wait, he may have done something in that realm, lessee, give a yellow bracelet to a child dying of cancer who had a smile on his face when he died. Lance may have doped, but again, so what? I loved watching Merckx, Fignon, etc, and I am sure I would have enjoyed watching Simpson, too.
No Lance is not mother therese, but this is just not about sports. He is from Texas, of course he comes off strong.
You addressed each of my issues, well, I understand where you are coming from, but you did not touch my question about why you felt like a dolt?