Life Changing in a Moment

Discussion in 'Airheads' started by R100LT, Oct 18, 2012.

  1. RGregor

    RGregor Been here awhile

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    Udo Gietl told me he used a 2° offset between upper and lower plug (lower firing 2° later) for better burning.
    I will test that with the ignitech as it allows to define that offset.
    #21
  2. adrenal

    adrenal skrunkwerks.com

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    That might be the case but does Jim C TIG up metal thickness before machining for standard M14 plug?
    Give away here is if you have to use a 5mm thick (approx) washer under the lower plugs. If so then he doesn't build thickness first.
    Would be really interested to know what he does here..
    #22
  3. R100LT

    R100LT Chasing 11

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    So just a little update.

    Last couple of months enjoying the 2 hour ride up to the airport on the RS for work each week ... but with the colder & wetter conditions coming on it is time to get my LT ( RT ) back together.

    Nice little package from Motorbins arrived today . Opted for the Omega Pistons to go with the 336 cam ... New values kit ... keeping that all standard ... and some nice new SS push rod tubes and new timing chain whilst I am it.

    Not going to do any head work or carbs swap ... see how it all runs when its together ... and hopefully no pinging coz I really don't want to dual plug it yet.

    All I am looking for is a bit more bite around the 120 km mark ... which is the speed that I need to pass the road trains .

    [​IMG]
    #23
  4. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    Adrenal,

    Jim just uses short reach plugs, no need for welding. You just have to make sure that you don't fit a long reach into the lower positions, if you do when you get to remove the plug you may strip the thread as the exposed threads will have got a layer of carbon.
    #24
  5. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    LT

    Have you seen the threads on 336 cams and how to check that you have a good one?
    #25
  6. supershaft

    supershaft because I can

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    If I raised the compression at all I would dual plug.

    I have seen a couple of heads crack between the bottom 14mm plug and the exhaust seat. I haven't been around many dual plugged heads with the bottom built up for a long reach plug. I have filled in a couple of spark plug holes for re-tapping and for some reason it would leave the head pretty warped and needing milled on both sides. I have had friends that have raised port floors by filling them in and and they said that would warp them a lot too. I use 12mm plugs short on the bottom. IMO, remapping the ignition curve is an important part of dual plugging. I would not simply retard the entire curve. It kills right off idle performance.

    I have no experience with removing material from the cylinders for compression. Which end? If it's the top, does it cause the nikisil to flake? Starting with 8.5:1 CR pistons, I would think you would need to shorten the push rod tubes a bit?
    #26
  7. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    Easy to get the dual plugged ignition correct nowadays, if you are adapting heads and cylinders to increase CR, you might have to reduce pushrod length a tad to keep the original geometry.
    #27
  8. supershaft

    supershaft because I can

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    From what I can tell it isn't so easy to get dual plugged ignition curves correct these days. If I understand them correctly, a lot of digital advance curves are not what I want to run. Without changing the RPM parameters, it is very easy to change the curve in a bean can. Most electronic curves I have seen have a lot of options that are out of our ballpark and/or not what I would run and the RPM parameters are for the most part not an option at all.

    If you shorten the cylinders, the geometry of the pushrod tubes is going to change regardless of their length as far as how they mate up to the case but not by very much at all as far as shortening them for compression is concerned. My concern is keeping them out of the head gasket and the right tension on the pushrod tube seals at the same time.

    I would hope the nikisil doesn't flake if they are shortened from the top. That is real close to the most stressed area of the bore!
    #28
  9. R100LT

    R100LT Chasing 11

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    Thanks Chas

    After reading the 8 odd pages of the 336 Cam thread I am really non the wiser. Not sure exactly what a " good " or " bad " cam should be . I am guessing that both left are right lobes should have the exact tapper . Is this correct ???

    Also I just got off the phone to Ray Peake . He is suggesting that I go the dual plug path . He has given me a reasonable quote on the head work but the thing that concerns me is that he is saying that my new values should be " polished " before I install them ... or they will be toast after 8000 km's.

    Also not exactly sure on which method to go on the dual plugging . I have the Euromoto charging system ... but there dual plugging system seems to be out of stock ... Any thoughts of best track to take.

    Again Ray warned me off installing the 336 cam . Makes me think that I might let it sit on the shelf for the RS . He says great for a road racer ... not so much for a long distance touring .. enough thou I tend to sit on 5000 rpm's from the moment I leave my drive way until I get up to the big smoke ( 200 km's )
    #29
  10. supershaft

    supershaft because I can

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    Checking a 336: You can do it with calipers. The two lobes for the left cylinder are a little higher on one side than the other by a couple of thou if I remember correctly. The two lobes for the right cylinder SHOULD be. Hopefully they are!

    I would definitely use a 12mm plug below. I just dual plugged my bike (robtg did the machine work!) but I have the stock bean can. Two .7 ohm Dyna coils. BMW /2 wire. 5k ohm NGK caps. I pushed in the two very malleable weight stops inside the can until I got my ignition timed from 6 degrees at idle to 28 degrees at full advance.

    If I was road racing I might want more cam than a 336 but they are a great do everything cam with awesome midrange. Not too much lift makes them great for the street. Long lobe ramps makes them not need any more than stock spring pressures. Their narrow degree lobe center to lobe center gives them tons of midrange. IMO, awesome cams for everything but parade duty and they can do that if need be. Sure, I have heard the stories of them making less power than a 308 under 6k rpm and the like but in my bike, friends bikes, and customers bikes? Less power than a 308? I would say under 2000rpm and then it isn't much. I had numerous people warn me not to install a 336. The owner of the dealership I was then working at and three of his mechanics told me he had one in a race bike and they couldn't get it to idle under 2000 rpm and it made no power under 6000. Just like tuners here have warned. I am glad I tried one for myself. From the get go my experience has been just the opposite but that really didn't surprise me after working with some of those guys.

    IMO, if you are one of those guys that never revs their bike above 5k rpm, you might not like a 336 although one of my customers claims he is one of those and he loves his. If you are like me and ride from 3k to 8k all the time while rarely dipping below 4k, you will love one. 5K? You'll like 5k SO much better with a 336!
    #30
  11. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    I have never used a 336 cam.......I don't think that SS has used any of the other cams available on his bike. I would like to see SS's dyno chart of his engine with the 336 fitted, but he is reluctant to share.

    Quite apart from performance issues I would not fit a 336 cam because of the design and manufacturing problems that have been recently found with some 336 cams, it's a hassle if you have to return a faulty cam especially where you live.

    I am currently using the assymetrical cam as fitted by Seibenrock to their 1070 kit bikes, it pulls well at all revs and then comes alive over 4500/5000 revs,thats good for me. It's been on the bike for around 15k miles. I'm also fitting a 320 degree cam to my small seal 90/6. Both cams bought from Motoren Israel in Germany. when the 90/6 has been completed and run in I will post before and after dyno charts so people can get an idea of what the difference is.

    Both my bikes are dual plugged. If the euro moto can't come through with the crank mounted ignition for their generator, you have the choice of either adapting the beancan as SS alludes to or I think that Emerald isle in Taiwan are producing brand new bean cans adapted for dual plug use. Available from Motorworks in the UK ( I thinnk) and there is a guy in Queensland who sells what looks like a version under his red dust trade name.

    Richie Moore developed your pistons, worth giving him a ring about whether or not he considers dual plugging to be required. His pistons are claimed to really work the squish band and MAY be resistant to pinging?

    Is there anyone in your neck of the woods who is experianced in porting your cylinders?

    Good luck with the work and I hope you get the bike of your dreams.
    #31
  12. Les_Garten

    Les_Garten Been here awhile

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    I'm going to give some input here, that's my way of subbing your thread which sounds great!

    I have the same pistons. I bought them from Ritchie Moore directly and have talked with him a few times on the Tele. He cannot be reached by Email, just don't happen.

    Those are 11:1 CR pistons! They are squish optimized and IMO you made the right choice with them. I would dual plug your heads. Ritchie will tell you it is not needed. I'm not sure he fully grasps the swill we call gasoline here. He'll tell you that his squish is setup to not ping. I think if Porsche dual plugs all their hemi heads, all the Porsche guys dual plug all the Hemi heads from the 70's on, and BMW dual plugs all their hemi heads now, that's good enough for me.

    Ritchie will also tell you the CAM you should use on those is a 324. You could also go with a 320 Asymmetric, which is a 320/324 hybrid. Ritchie will tell you to give that 336 cam to Supershaft, he'll have sex with it and it's quite a show!

    Additionally those Pistons and a 324 CAM won't have any question of Piston to Valve clearance issues, or Valve to Valve clearance issues like the 336 may,depending on a few parameters.

    Not wanting to turn this thread into a CAM war, really, not wanting to do that. Just telling you what I have done in research with some of the same things you have. PM me a phone number and I'll give ya a call if you like.

    Silent Hektik makes a nice ignition system with a lot of tune-ability. Expensive though.

    Ignitech and Microsquirt for the adventurous.

    Bean Can bending/grinding/shimming/bushing for the Paleolithic approach.

    All that done, hmmm carbs... A free breathing, high CR, cammed, dual plugged, big valve motor might like 38, 39, or 40 mm's of breathing...

    Nothing like wicking the throttle open and having the rear tire break loose and leaning out over the handlebars to hold the front wheel down, flatslides will do that.
    #32
  13. supershaft

    supershaft because I can

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    Don't want to start a cam war? With language like that? That's talking out of both sides of your face at once. Very funny. Ha, ha.

    Despite the same people over and over again accusing me of thinking the 336 is god's gift to cams, I don't think that. All my intentions are is to counter all the negative stories I hear about 336's. There are five or six of us here on ADVR that I can think of right now that actually have 336's in their bikes and are very happy with them for their wide power band with lots of midrange. Are some of the other cams as crappy as some claim the 336 is? I don't know but I also don't know why some would say that 336's have a narrow, high rpm power band.

    The 336 has design and manufacturing problems? It has no design problems IMO. All cams sometimes have manufacturing problems.

    It does seem like Moorespeed is about the only guy out their not dual plugging our two valve hemi's and we aren't the only ones out there dual plugging two valve hemi's. Pretty much everyone does it with a lot of different engines.

    Just so readers know. You can get most advance curves that most electronic advances offer simply buy bending two bendable tabs through the inspection port of a bean can. I reset my curve in ten minutes. You do have to know what you are doing but other than that . . . .
    #33
  14. Les_Garten

    Les_Garten Been here awhile

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    I know, all the Tuners are wrong and you're right...

    Can you name a reputable tuner recommending the 336 CAM to Street Riders? Over the 320 or 324 variants?

    Here's what I'll betcha. A poll for only Street Riders.

    1) I installed a 336 CAM and kept it forever, wouldn't want anything else.
    2) I had a 336 CAM and pulled it out because I didn't like it, and went to CAMX, LOVE CAMX
    3) I had CAMX and went to a 336 CAM and LOVE the 336
    4) I had CAMX, went to 336, went back to CAMX



    How do you think that Poll would turn out?

    You said that, not me...
    #34
  15. supershaft

    supershaft because I can

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    All tuners are wrong and I am right? Get real. I am not the only tuner here that does not think the 336 is a high rpm, narrow powerband cam. If you think I am the only guy out there recommending them for street bikes you need to open your ears. I suggest starting with Dr. Curve. He definitely does. You might read up on him and ask how Dirk can claim long rod ratios in airheads started at his shop.

    Recommend a 336 OVER a 320 or 324? I certainly am not on of those since I have no experience with 320's or 324's. One thing is for sure, IF I did and I liked them better than a 336 I would not find the need to make up a bunch of negative attributes of the 336 in order to make the other cams look better I guess? Hearing fans of the other cams making up negative claims about the 336 that I have not seen at all raises my suspicions about what to believe from them about the other cams.

    Your poll is about as loaded as you are most of the time. What kind of tuner would agree with #1. I like my 336 but I am not a blind idiot when it comes to always keeping my eyes open for something better.

    A better worded poll? For people that have actually had a 336? I think the poll would come out very favorably for it. There's a number of inmates here that love theirs. All but two of them I think have them in street bikes.

    I didn't say that the 336 had design and manufacturing problems. Chasbmw did.
    #35
  16. R100LT

    R100LT Chasing 11

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    Thanks for the offer Les

    I did call Ritchie before I purchased the pistons . He said the same thing too in regards to no need to dual plug them ... plus to use the 336 Cam as a paperweight. I would have purchased them direct off him , but I needed a few other things from Motobins

    I really wish I could find this article that I found 18 months ago about how some European Police Forces in the 80's used the 336 cam's in their special highway pursuit bikes . Basically they spent hours cruising up and down the Autobahns ... and when needed ... they had the extra " punch " to chase down speeders . They were never really used for inner city or escort work because of the poor handling in the lower range.

    Their bikes share alot in common with mine and what I am trying to achieve . Being RT's and pushing that barn door around plus having extra weight of police equipment ( I have over 15 kg's of stereo stuff on mine ) at about 4500-5000 rpm's I am sitting on 110-120 kmph . I really want that extra speed to over take on the long stretches.

    I have the 336 cam ready to go ... and I guess all I can lose by putting it in is 6-8 hours if I need to exchange it . I am an experimental guy so I guess I will give it a bash . All I am hoping that it will not do any damage.

    In regards to carbs I am still debating getting some bigger than the 32mm Bings ... then I could get larger heads , valves , exhaust etc ... but really at the end of the day ... this isn't intended to be a road racer . I will leave that until next year for my RS ( unless I get lucky with a R80 and build a cafe racer )
    #36
  17. Les_Garten

    Les_Garten Been here awhile

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    Good luck and keep us posted. I want to hear how your pistons work out for sure.

    If I were building a bike for the Autobahn, perhaps a 336 where 100 mph is the minimum speed basically. I lived in Stuttgart for 4 years. How many CAMs were available in the 80's? I think really only the 336, so that's what they would use.

    I have no doubt that twisting high RPMs for speed, the 336 would work. Nobody has ever denied that.
    #37
  18. R100LT

    R100LT Chasing 11

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    Oh ... and I haven't really found that the fuel here in Oz especially running either 95 or 98 octane is bad .. so fingers crossed on the pinging .

    PS .. I am not trying to ignore you SS ... I really enjoying having your input .. especially when some one is so passionate about something
    #38
  19. Les_Garten

    Les_Garten Been here awhile

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    Ahhh, forgot you were in Oz.
    #39
  20. supershaft

    supershaft because I can

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    I don't know if I would call it passion. It's just what I have experienced. I first installed my 336 into a stock small port '92 R100 with stock 8.5:1 pistons and 32mm carbs just in time for a rally over the Sierra. Packed up for comfortable camping for two with my ex on back over Donner pass we went. It's a pass I am very familiar with having lived in the SF Bay area for some time. At 70 to 80mph cruising speed up the four lane mountain pass the first thing I noticed about the 336 was no more need to constantly downshift getting through cars on the four lane I-80. Just crack the throttle and go! 100mph? 336's do work real well at that speed too!

    A 320 or 324 might work better in your bike than a 336. Calling a 336 a paperweight is just wrong. Especially when you know there are a number of inmates here that really like what 336's do to their bikes.

    How many cams other than the 336 use to be available? I am thinking Crane, Luftmeiser, Mega Cycle, and one or two more that I can't remember the names of right now. Luftmeister's were probably a re-branded cam? Read Dr. Curves articles. He had a number of cams to choose from back then.
    #40