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Discussion in 'The Garage' started by lightsorce, Sep 9, 2007.
This question comes up often... 270 is green, not red.
You can get some here among other places.
Kick ass, I had no idea!
Yeah, I had read that before.
http://www.cnctar.hunbay.com/Svejk/Loctite%20ragaszt%F3k/Loctite%20270.pdf which looks like a Loctite Technical Data Sheet says its green???
We're talking about 271, which is red........I don't think he meant to put the "ALSO" in his description, as we know 270 is green.
Red is the new Green?
No, wait, this is the Loctite thread, not a thread on printing money and this wonderful economy..sorry.
270 /break loose:230 prevailing:350
271/break loose: 250 prevailing: 275
277/break loose: 275 prevailing: 275
2760/break loose: 325 prevailing: 320
As you can see none are an exact match, but keep in mind all of the prods. listed above should work nicely.
I must be color blind
I have been debating this AM over whether to make this post in Vendors or this thread, ADVrider's very own slightly irreverant yet unofficial "Ask a Loctite Question Thread".
And since this link is only about cross fertilization and sharing tips and tricks with other folks throughout the world on holding your machinery together and keeping fluid in your engine rather than on the ground, all of us might learn a thing or two I figured I'd post the link on this thread.
There's also a giveaway of $20k worth of shop tools as an added bonus if the tip or trick you share is culled from the collective wisdom.
Mods, if any of you feel making this post or posting this link isn't apprpriate please take appropriate action. Sorry.
Peace, Love, and Glue,
One big difference between Loctite 270 and 271 is the former (270) is hard to find locally and can be expensive, especially when you add shipping charges, whereas the latter (271) is readily available from Home Depot for about $5.00.
I assume, perhaps incorrectly, the break loose number applies to the torque needed to break the bond, but what does the prevailing number apply to?
Try this link:
I still need a little clarification on prevaililing. According to the table you have a link to:
The torque required to run a nut down a thread on certain types of nuts designed to resist vibration loosening. The resistance can be provided by a plastic insert or a noncircular head
Does this mean that when Loctite 271 has been used that it will take 275 F-lb (N-m ?) for a bolt to unscrew?
I'm just a dummy with no special knowledge but from my limited reading I think that to break loose, i.e., unscrew a nut treated with Loctite 271 it will require the application of 250 F-lb or N-m as the case may be.
My guess is that if you had a bolt treated with 271 and allowed the nut to set up and then tried to tighten it down the shaft through the solidified 271 it would take the prevailing torque to turn the nut. The use of a prevailing torque figure with a loctite type of fixing agent doesn't seem to make much sense given the definition of prevailing torque.
Petdoc- Sorry for the delay in responding. I was out all last week at a Boy Scout Summer Camp with Tiny D and have just now gotten caught up with everything.
The breakloose and prevailing loosening torque numbers I posted aren't foot lbs., they make reference to inch/lbs.
1 foot/lb = 12 inch/lbs
50 foot/lbs. = 600inch/lbs
All of our quoted strength specs relate to an ISO test # 10964 on M10 Steel Nuts and bolts. Realizing this, using larger or smaller threaded fasteners than M10's we tested on, you'll get different breakloose or prevailing strength values.
Breakloose torque is the effort needed to remove the induced clamp load.
Prevailing torque is the effort required once the breakloose torque has been overcome to make that first round of loosening.
By understanding that different threadlockers have different breakloose and prevailing strengths, when mounting a stud you wish to remain in a housing it is suggested to use a stronger threadlocker than the threadlocker used on a nut which must be threaded onto the stud.
By doing this when the nut is removed, the breakloose and subsequent prevailing loosening torque will be lower than the b/l and prev. torque of the threadlocker used to fix the stud to the housing.
For an exhaust manifold stud, the new ultra-high temp high strength threadlocker should be used to fix the stud to the head, and a ultra-high temp medium strength threadlocker should be used on the nut used to fix the header to the head.
One point for clarification--are these torque values based on removing/turning a bolt with or without heating to 249 degrees F?
It would seem if the latter (i.e., no heat) you could easily remove a bolt applied with red loctitte (271) without heat, which based on my own experience is not true.
Just read the whole thread. Been using Loctite for years, but now know much more about it. Thanks Dirty.
Now I'm going to ask a few I haven't seen tackled yet.
When I was a Harley tech, I distinctly remember "Green" loctite being used for something. My memory says it was for things even red couldn't handle. What was that stuff? I don't need it, just curious as I've not seen it used anywhere since. I don't remember the number or anything.
One more, after working in the Harley shop, I had a gig in medical equipment repair. While doing that, I came across a product we used called "Black Max". It was like Superglue, only black (duh). I'm 99% sure it was a loctite product. How is it different than superglue? Again, just curious as I've not seen the stuff used anywhere else.
The anaerobic products that are stronger than threadlockers (designed for mechanical thread engagement) are called Retaining Compounds.
R/C's are designed for cylindrical engagement. Engagement where threads are not present-like mounting bearings, pulleys, sheaves, keyed assemblies and the like. Think of a retaining compound as a threadlocker on steroids. The strongest threadlocker is we have has roughly the same breakloose and prevailing loosening torque as the weakest retaining compound if it were used in the very same threadlocking application.
Retaining Compounds when used in a threadlocking application are very strong and likely an overkill in most every application out there. Threaded fasteners will likely shear the bolt heads off if removal is attempted without heating up the fastener first-until you see that first whisp of smoke coming off of the retaining compound. At that point the material has broken down enough to allow removal without fastener or stubstrate destruction. Beware though-an oil seal, O-ring, etc. might get damaged as a result of the localized heat, so beware.
Beware! Everyone has been warned.
Black Max is a rubber toughened cyanoacrylate ($3 word for super glue/instant adhesive) and was developed because a mfg couldn't get the club face inserts on their drivers to withstand thousands of ball impacts. Rubber was added to a instant adhesive to absorb ball impact.
It's Friday and I will ride tomorrow!
I have a question that I don't think has been covered. I need to fix threaded exhaust stubbs, to slip exhuast pipes over, into the head of my old Triumph. These are standard OEM, but continually come loose. Standard blue or red loctite doesn't seem to have much effect as the temps are obviously very high (directly off the exhaust port, about 1" from the valve itself).
The threads are worn from vibration and being loose, but are still effective. Is there a product that will seal these threads, prevent vabration from loosening them off...and take the heat??
I read a post on anther MC thread stating once red loctite was heated to 250 degrees F it crystallizes and is no longer a strong thread locker. Is this true--i.e., if you heat up a bolt, but do not disturb it the loctite, once cool, is no longer good?
If this is the case I would think applying loctite anywhere close to the combustion chamber would result in poor thread locking.
Checking in from the Loctite booth at Sturgis-
JTT, we have two brand spanking new ultra high-temp thread lockers good for 650F continuous in red and blue. I don't have my catalog on me right now but will get you the part numbers ASAP.
One of these just might fill the bill, the only thing that concerns me is that you mentioned the blind stud holes (something I never thought I would say on an internet forum by the way) are somewhat wallowed out. These new products cure through a fairly large gap, but hitting the stud with a shot of Primer N would force the material to cure through the excessively large thread root gap.
PETDOC- For the usual non high temp threadlockers, you'd need to heat them up to 500F for 5 minutes if you go by the book, but as your chief political advisor I say heat that puppy up until you see that first wisp of smoke, then loosen her up.
Once you heat up a threaded fastener for removal, it needs to be reapplied.
For the new 650F red and blue threadlockers, they haven't listed the heat removal temperatures, but you'd need to heat it up untill you see that wisp of smoke and you'd be golden.
Beware though, too much heat might destroy surrounding oil seals or nearby plastic parts, or might even make for some interesting skin branding shapes.
Sturgis is f*cking nuts. Chicks walking down main street with nothing but pasties, fat chicks in thongs, and way too many assless chaps for one lifetime. Haven't had a chance to get to any of the campgrounds where the funky stuff happens, but I have friends with cameras.
And all the pirates say Arrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Thanks Dirty! For more clarity, these stubbs are bits of 1.5" diameter pipe threaded on the OD. They thread into the exhaust port of the head, however do not actually bottom out on anything as far as I can tell. I figure based on how they are arranged, that they really should be pipe thread (tapered), however are not, which leads to vibration shaking them loose.
I appreciate the help and will standby for your updates. Perhaps a Leatt brace might help with your whiplash exposure from the rally?
JTT- I still can't get a visual of the setup as you describe, photos would help...me and other guys who might have a similar problem down the road.
A Leat would be nice, but at least the Amsoil guys are next door for some personal lubricant should the need arise.