Loctite

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by lightsorce, Sep 9, 2007.

  1. Taranis

    Taranis Been here awhile

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    Dirty,

    Gixxer service manual calls for "Thread Lock Cement Super 1360 or equivalent, P/No.: 99000–32130" on brake rotor bolts. Googled it and found a reference to it being for high temp, and also Threebond and Permatex using the number. Couldn't actually confirm your nemeses doing that, but found this:

    http://www.threebond.co.uk/PRODUCTS/ThreeBondLockingAgents/AnaerobicSealant/tabid/210/Default.aspx

    1360 High Temperature Nutlock (Up to 200ºC) [392 in "press 1 for English"]
    Medium Viscosity
    Fixing and sealing of bolts, nuts and screws requiring high thermal resistance ​

    The bikes come with a blue patch on the bolts from the factory.

    What Loctite would your recommend on my rotor bolts? I'm thinking blue strength but high-temp capability.
  2. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    There's no way the the bolts which hold the rotor on the hub get hotter than 300F.

    The product they called for is good for near 450F, it's way stronger than you need, and the smallest container it comes in is 50ml.

    The blue preapplied dried on product is not available to mere mortals like us. It's called drylock and is only applied at coatings houses for customers like GM, Honda, Suzuki, etc, etc., etc. who use millions of the same size fasteners each year. The color of the drylock product is nothing like the color of the liquids.

    Blue liquids are removable, while I have no idea without looking it up the strength of a blue preapplied.

    Go to your local Motion Industries, Grainger, Fastenal, Barnes, MSC, Applied Industrial Technologies, and ask for Loctite pn. 1330583. This is a 10ml bottle of one of the new primerless, higher temp (360F) red permanent threadlockers. Once again, there's no way those rotor bolts are going to get up to 360F-even under racing conditions.

    Dirty
  3. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Thanks for the good word.

    Baby needs shoes.

    Dirty
  4. Taranis

    Taranis Been here awhile

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    Why red, rather than the 243 blue? Maybe it's just because my day job is around race cars, but I don't think of a brake rotor as something that gets permanently installed. I've torched red Loctite out of a bent handlebar before (threaded bar end inserts for hand guards). Wouldn't want to have to do that on M8 fasteners in a large aluminum casting like a wheel. Could be annealing the casting and throwing it in the recycle bin before the fasteners were up to temp to get the wisp of smoke.


    Color: Blue
    Specification: NSF/ANSI 61
    Style: Primerless / Oil Tolerant Liquid
    Type: Threadlocker
    Performance: Medium Strength
    Container Type: Bottle
    Container Size: 10 mL
    Temperature: -65[DEG]F - 360[DEG]F
  5. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Taranis-

    Blue or Red would be fine. Good that you're already familiar with the blow torch trick for removal of fasteners with red threadlocker.

    If you went the red 263 route, you'd likely have to use a little crack pipe size torch to soften the material up enough to allow you to remove the fasteners.

    If you didn't want to go that route, pn. 1329837, the blue 243 primerless threadlocker would be fine as well in my opinion.

    Of course my opinion is worth exactly what you paid.

    Seriously, the blue would be fine.

    Dirty
  6. cat

    cat Long timer

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    Something i've been wondering about, related to brake disc bolts...
    For Ti disc bolts, bolts (like Pro-Bolt), they always say to use anti-seize because of the galling of Ti. But that bothers me a bit - for obvious reasons. So, i wonder, what is the expert opinion on it?
  7. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Stainless and Titanium are both very sticky metals. Not sticky like a piece of tape, but sticky as male and female threads are placed under high sliding loads.

    Titanium is stickier than stainless. Because of this stickiness some sort of lubricant is strongly encouraged to lessen the tendency of these metals from cold welding themselves together and causing headaches. For threaded stainless fittings used to seal fluid or air, if some sort of lubricant isn't used, you tighten the widget up and hear a creak, or feel grabbiness of some sort, and the fitting is gonna leak. The creak or grabbiness is the slow moving high load surfaces destroying all sealing ability.

    In the application of a brake rotor being bolted to a hub, there's a tremendous amount of loading taking place. This side or shear loading of the threaded fastener actually stretches all components. None of us have the tools to measure the stretching and side loading. If we were to use an anti-seize in this application, grease and metal dust will allow you to tighten the fastener up to the point the proper clamp load has been introduced......BUT, nothing worth mentioning is used to fill the gap created between the male and female thread roots. You're depending on the elasticity of the threaded fastener to maintain a sufficient clamp load. Repeated side loading of the threaded fastener (every time you apply the brakes) might cause loosening. I'd rather not take that risk.

    Earlier in this thread I get into the purpose of an anti-seize as it relates to slowing/stopping galvanic corrosion-you'll learn more once you find that post.

    Just like an anti-seize, by using a threadlocker on the other hand will give you the same lubricity to achieve the same clamp load, you'll still be dealing with the same degree of fastener elasticity....BUT as side loading is induced (brake application) and as the rotor goes through heating and cooling cycles, you'll never loose the clamp load because the airspace contained between the male and female thread roots is fully supported by a hard thermoset plastic.

    Dig?

    Dirty
  8. cat

    cat Long timer

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    Thanks, Dirty, just what i needed. I'll get to finding that post on anti-seize later today.
  9. go4mini

    go4mini Been here awhile

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    :d
  10. wheels

    wheels Practicing to retire

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    :thumbup

    Originally Posted by idscarecrow
    dirty_sanchez, i hope you get paid extra for this, or at least you do it on work time. You are the best damn factory rep i have heard of. I always read this thread, and you have the most thorough, correct, no-bullshit answers around. Thanks for the education in loctite.
  11. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Thanks Guys-

    If you don't dig your gig you need to find another...and I'm not looking.

    Dirty
  12. obfuscation

    obfuscation n00b

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    As many others have said, thanks for a great resource you're providing here.

    I'm rebuilding a '64 Jeep with tapered axle shafts. The hubs are attached to the axle shafts by a tight fitting taper and a big nut. There is a keyway too, but you really want the taper to carry the torque. In the factory service manual (from the 60s), it suggests that a loose hub can be fixed by applying white lead to the axle shaft on assembly. White lead was once used as a thread locker, but surely there is a superior product for this. It also needs to be removable without heating the parts too much. What would you recommend?

    Thanks very much!

    Exploded view of axle:
    [​IMG]
  13. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Ob- I'd go with something called 660 Quick metal. It's made for keyed assys similar to this sort of application.

    Clean and degrease all surfaces, draw a bead into the key slot, fit the key, and smear a bead across the contact area of the OD of the shaft, slide on the hub/spindle, then torque to spec within 5 minutes. Let it sit for 24 hours before going rock crawling.

    For removal, you'll need a sturdy 3 jaw puller, or an enerpac hydraulic puller.

    Good question, nifty project!

    Dirty
  14. Smopho

    Smopho Been here awhile

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    White lead was not a thread locker, it is a high solid paint that can build up a surface and tighten clearances.
  15. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Correct.

    The best machined fittings are ones with a very high percentage of metal to metal contact between the mating surfaces-be it cylindrical engagement or in the case of a threaded assy, threaded engagement.

    Years back white lead was used but it went the way of cork gaskets as adhesive technology outpaced their usefulness.

    660 Quick Metal is designed to fill surface imperfections of cylindrical machined fits.

    It's WAY too strong to ever be used as a threadlocker....everyone..consider yourselves warned.

    Dirty
  16. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    If the taper's not damaged, you shouldn't need anything more than to make sure the taper's clean and dry before assembly. The joint drives through friction between the axle and hub, not the key, which is there purely as a locator. Tighten to the specified torque and drive for a day or two, then re-torque because the joint may have settled a bit. Once the torque remains constant, you're done.
  17. Stan_R80/7

    Stan_R80/7 Beastly Gnarly

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    On my old ('78) airhead, Loctite 290 (green) and Vibra-tite VC3 are the two thread lockers used most. I always wondered if Loctite makes a product similar to Vibra-tite VC3? My admiration for the product comes from reusing the same fastener without having to reapply, which seems to happen often on this old bike.

    I recently used the green to help with a leaking cylinder head push-rod tube oil seeping problem. Good stuff. The stick loctite (blue) sounds like something I must have - just because.
  18. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Machines are made up of a series of components, and when one sub-component fails-the machine tends to fail. Failures normally occur where two components are attached to each other.

    Unitizing assemblies with appropriate machinery adhesives makes for a safe and reliable machine.

    Dirty
  19. Patrol

    Patrol VALE 46!

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    I got to tryout the stick when they were just in the evaluation stage. Actually, they gave me so much that I still have it ten years later. I prefer it. Easy to use. No mess. Doesn't deteriorate in cold/heat like the liquid.
  20. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Me too-and I'm lucky enough to choose the liquid, the stick, or the new threadlocker on a tape.

    The sticks are just way to easy to use. The only thing you can't use the stick on is with a blind hole.

    And when I say "Blind Hole" I'm not talking about Dirty Denise:evil

    Dirty