Loctite

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by lightsorce, Sep 9, 2007.

  1. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Todd-on something like threaded linkage bolts I'd use a blue removable threadlocker.

    Anti-Seize is nothing more than a combination of grit/metal dust/graphite/molybdynum and grease-properly used in high heat applications on a bike on spark plug threads, exhaust header studs, etc.

    On linkage bolts, I'd use a blue threadlocker which is easily removed with hand tools on the threads. You already mentioned the linkage fasteners have shown corrosion even after you use an anti-seize on them. A threadlocker in a liquid or stick form completely fills that 70% airgap found in between male and female threads and cures to a hard thermoset plastic which reliably keeps moisture out of the threads, and if we can keep all moisture out of that airspace, we've eliminated rustlock.

    If you haven't already-go to page one on this thread, get your favorite Sunday Morning beverage and start reading.

    Glad you jumped in with a question. The thread has sorta been quiet for the last few weeks.

    Dirty
  2. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Todd-on something like threaded linkage bolts I'd use a blue removable threadlocker.

    Anti-Seize is nothing more than a combination of grit/metal dust/graphite/molybdynum and grease-properly used in high heat applications or applications where critical torque values are needed to achieve specific clamploads-this is a whole different topic of discussion because we'd be testing different thread finishes, coatings, lubricity factors (aka "K factor").

    Places I use anti-seize on my bikes are: spark plug threads, exhaust header studs, front and rear axle nuts, counter shaft nut, chain tension bolts on the swingarm, etc.

    On linkage bolts, I'd use a blue threadlocker which is easily removed with hand tools on the threads. You already mentioned the linkage fasteners have shown corrosion even after you use an anti-seize on them. A threadlocker in a liquid or stick form completely fills that 70% airgap found in between male and female threads and cures to a hard thermoset plastic which reliably keeps moisture out of the threads, and if we can keep all moisture out of that airspace, we've eliminated rustlock.

    If you haven't already-go to page one on this thread, get your favorite Sunday Morning beverage and start reading.

    Glad you jumped in with a question. The thread has sorta been quiet for the last few weeks.

    Dirty
  3. todd83-900t

    todd83-900t Been here awhile

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    Sorry for the confusion but the threads of the fasteners are free of corrosion. It's the smooth part of the bolt's that are rusting. For example, the body of the swing arm bolt or the dog bone bolts that the 640A have.

    Yes, I'm a 243 convert and apply it to everything.
  4. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    I'd clean the non-threaded shank of the bolt shaft with steel wool or hit it a lick with a wire wheel on a bench grinder to clean it up, then rub down the non-threaded shank of the bolt with firm fingertip pressure with a waterproof grease. I use a synthetic zero-water washout grease, but any waterproof grease would be better than nothing, then reassemble.

    Dirty
  5. stainlesscycle

    stainlesscycle Long timer

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    the only solution is to service the bolts/linkage more often. i use waterproof grease, but nothing is 100% sealed and they routinely see water/dirt/etc. disassemble, grease, and reassemble is the only reasonable solution. you could zirk fitting some of the pivots - that kind of depends on the design..
  6. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    I have a bearing for a Cush KTM 640 on one side that has lost its press fit. I'd call it a nice slip fit. The journal isn't spun but looks like it has slipped. I micd the bearing at 52.00mm and the bore at 52.02mm on average

    Anyways the plan is retaining compound. I have some 680 but wondering what the best compound would be knowing that I will need to remove at normal maint intervals? Is 680 overkill?

    Thanks
  7. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    680 would be a fine choice. We're well within the cure through gap.

    Clean the OD of the bearing and the ID of the hub with a good residue-free cleaner degreaser. Spread a thin uniform bead of 680 around the OD of the bearing and slip into place. Wipe off any squeezeout, mount the wheel on the bike, torque the axle nut to spec and let sit overnight. By mounting the wheel you'll be squaring up the bearing and seating it to the proper depth.

    That's it. By using a retaining compound the bearing fit will be 3 times stronger than it was off of the factory floor.

    Use a little heat for removal. The book says to heat the surface up to 500F for 5 minutes, but once you see that first whisp of smoke, the material will have softened enough you'll be able to tap out the bearing from the inside with a drift and tap hammer.

    Great application!

    Dirty
  8. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Awesome thanks I was worried it was going to be too much. Anything with less heat required to disassemble?
  9. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    If the bearing ever fails-and I doubt it will you could press it out with an arbor press if the throat was deep enough....or you could use an inside jaw slide hammer and a little heat.

    It'll be fine.

    Dirty
  10. simestd

    simestd Been here awhile

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    Hey Dirty,

    Along exactly those lines, what Loctite product would you recommend for attaching a rare earth magnet to a smooth aluminum casting. Specifically I want to make make up a magnetic drain plug for my XT225 by bonding a high temperature magnet into this pocket:

    Thanks!


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    </td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From ADV
    </td></tr></tbody></table>
  11. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    I'd go in there with a dremel tool and cut a slot in each of those 3 tits, then drop in the magnet and use an internal snap ring in the slots to keep it there. Last thing you want is a magnet getting loose and jamming in a transmission gear.
  12. simestd

    simestd Been here awhile

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    I've seen that done - and there was a fellow who did a short production run over on xt225.com. The rub is the magnets that will tolerate high temperatures without becoming demagnetized are only available in limited size ranges and I can't find one that would be a good fit behind a snap ring in that space without an additional layer to hold it in. If I can find an adhesive that will tolerate oil submersion and the typical crankcase temperatures while providing good shear strength then it's a lot simpler just to glue the thing. Look at the goldplug.com plugs - those are all glued - and I'd be buying one over there but due to the oddball drain plug design, they don't make one for the XT225. By the way, I'm just trying to make one for myself and then share the knowledge.
  13. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    @Dirty_Sanchez .. to the red courtesy phone
    your assistance is needed here:
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=969129&page=7

    seems on R1200GS rear caliper bolts factory spec is a super low 18ft lb .. which IMHO is a fuck up by BMW. no one else no one else in the world that I'm aware of uses 18ft lb torque that low to hold together a mission critical part like brake calipers.

    reports of untouched rear caliper bolts backing out causing wholesale destruction to final drive and/or spokes. best theory is rear fender bobbing around helps rear caliper bolt back out.

    assuming proper grade fasteners are used .. an 8mm bolt and cast aluminum bolt threads into is capable of holding torque in excess of 18ft lb spec'd by BMW.

    loctite apparently states no change in torque value is needed. but when loctite is applied aprox 11% increase in torque will result. which IHMO is a good thing increasing torque to 20ft lb in this particular application.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  14. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    I looked over the Technical Data Sheets for a number of different epoxies for bonding one of those rare earth magnets into a drain plug and settled on E-20HP.

    At the 1,000 hour mark, the strength of this adhesive actually goes up to 171%ish of it's full cure strength when in continuous immersion in motor oil. At the 500 hour mark it's strength is 164%.

    Chemical / Solvent Resistance
    Cured for 5 days at 22°C on steel with no induced gap, aged
    under conditions indicated and tested at 22°C.
    Solvent Temp. % Initial Strength retained at
    500 hr 1000 hr
    Air 87°C - 137
    Motor Oil (10W-30) 87°C 164 171
    Unleaded Gasoline 87°C 108 82
    Water/Glycol (50%/50%) 87°C 121 125
    Salt/Fog ASTM B-117 22°C - 73
    95% Relative Humidity 38°C - 100
    Condensing Humidity 49°C - 90
    Water 22°C - 81
    Acetone 22°C 76 95
    Isopropyl Alcohol

    As others have suggested, with a Dremel tool, grind out the plug so you can fit the magnet into the drain plug cavity, clean it out real good with a residue-free cleaner/degreaser, fill the cavity roughly 25% full, slowly fit the magnet into place so that it fits all the way in the bottom of the drain plug. Work clean, wipe off all squeeze out so the male threads in the drain plug don't get fouled by the soon-to-be-cured epoxy.

    In keeping this as generic of a thread as possible I don't ever offer up part numbers for my suggestions, so if you want suitable part numbers-PM me and I'll shoot them over to you.

    Great Application! Thanks for asking!

    Dirty
  15. RFVC600R

    RFVC600R SAND EATER!

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    171% full strength?? That's awesome. I think I'm going to make a magnetic plug for my sump.
  16. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Yeah, it's kinda interesting how different fluids and chemical exposures can effect full strength of adhesives.
  17. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Cy-Thanks for asking for my input on that thread. Even bigger thanks for all of the battery research on your Battery Thread-something that is so far above my level of understanding I'm overwelmed.

    Now on to the question on the Rear Brake Caliper bolts for the big BMW's. For shits, I looked up the front and rear brake caliper bolt torque spec for the 690 and it is 18.4lb/ft or 25nm or 221in/lb. So this torque spec must be in the ballpark.

    The question after looking over the thread and the bickering you referenced is that will adding a blue or red threadlocker increase or decrease the torque needed to adequately secure that brake caliper. -The question was phrased incorrectly- read on.

    As I have mentioned earlier in this thread most of us don't have tools at our disposal to measure clamp load, but most of us have a repeatable device known as a torque wrench.

    Torque required to achieve a certain clamp load on dry non-lubricated threads will be considerably greater than the same clamp load on lubricated threads. Thread galling and deformation is also more likely to rear it's ugly head on dry threads as well.

    For reference, most anti-seizes have a "K Factor" or "Lubricity Factor" of roughly 0.11 to 0.16. Blue threadlocker liquids and sticks have a lubricity factor of 30 weight motor oil, which has a lubricity or K factor of roughly 0.13.

    Clamp load will be greater (your parts will be held together much more strongly) for the same torque value on lubricated threads than they ever will be if they were assembled with non-lubricated threads.

    What does this mean? Use a blue threadlocker (I suggest 243) on those NEW cleaned and degreased brake caliper bolts and torque them down to the recommended 18ft/lbs. with a calibrated clicker-style torque wrench and be done with it. By lubricating the threads we'll have a ball park increase in clamp load of no more than 10%...but this is just an educated guess.

    Are we clear as mud now?

    Dirty
  18. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    thanks for your feedback .. it's obvious that you are the go to person on Adv for loctite technical questions ...

    Justice has been saying basically the same thing in busted caliper thread. now you've verified it.
  19. just jeff

    just jeff Long timer

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    Just for a reality check....10% of the stated 18ft/lbs is 1.8ft/lbs. I wonder who among us has a torque wrench sensitive enough or operates it well enough for this to matter.
    jj
  20. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Ding Ding Ding!!

    It's not like we're building a spaceship destined for a mission to Mars that's dependant on uber critical torque specs.

    Dirty