Loctite

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by lightsorce, Sep 9, 2007.

  1. simestd

    simestd Been here awhile

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    Thanks for the in-depth and complete research there Dirty! PM inbound shortly for more specific part number and availability information :D
  2. simestd

    simestd Been here awhile

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    Not to go off thread, but the rare earth magnets can be made of different materials and most will loose a significant portion of their strength if exposed to typical crankcase temperatures.

    K&J Magnetics has a good blog post explaining the thermal properties of various types of super magnets.

    This is where I'm sourcing the magnets I am using.
  3. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    You're not going to do it with a 100 ft/lb wrench, which is what I suspect is the problem behind all of the torque wrench disasters we see. It's just not accurate at either end of its range. I have nice small beam type wrenches that are plenty accurate at that figure.
  4. ohgood

    ohgood Long timer

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    18 lbs? Why not just use a quarter inch drive and not try to kill it?

    I'll likely strip out every bolt I turn tomorrow, now that I got worse about it :D
  5. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    If you're doing it in in/lbs, the figure is 216.
  6. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    bonified tool nut here ... beam torque wrenches are typically more accurate than click types. part of problem is folks don't unwind their wrenches, so spring takes a set. always unwind after use, unless you've got an internal beam clicker.

    here's pics of different types of torque wrenches, including several 1/4 in drive in lb. one beam 0-120 in lb, one screwdriver style 2-36 in lb and clicker style 10-150in lb.

    Snap-on electronic torque meter to calibrate other wrenches and to document precise settings. with 1/4in, 3/8in and 1/2in torque sensors. which are sitting on Snap-on 1/2 dr beam 0-200ft lbs
    note the in oz setting on Snap-on electrotorque meter
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  7. just jeff

    just jeff Long timer

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    Very cool but not many home mechanics out there spend the thousands of dollars represented in that collection ON THEIR BIKES let alone their tools!!
  8. NZRalphy

    NZRalphy Been here awhile

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    Hey Dirty

    Mate brilliant info and I have learnt a LOT of stuff here. It's kind of like going to a Loctite seminar but in my own time. Happy. So many questions have been answered. MrsR kept looking over my shoulder for the last days 'Are you STILL reading that? humph'. I am now a loctite nerd, loving it.

    Thank you. Oh and be sure your boss gets to see your effort to help us at this site.
  9. Taranis

    Taranis Been here awhile

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    I'm very careful with BMW torque specs, as I have learned the hard way. Back in 2004, I was working on a customer's brand new M3. I didn't have a manual for the car, but having done the simple task I was doing many times on many other cars, wasn't worried about it. Set the torque wrench to what I had used for the same diameter and pitch fastener in the same place doing the same job on my 1985 Toyota, and snapped the dang thing off. Had to buy a new $90 part (fastener was a pressed-in stud, not available separately) because BMW saved $0.03 on a crappy fastener. Later found a manual and saw the BMW torque spec on that fastener is less than half of the Toyota spec. On all the other cars I've worked on, the Toyota is typical. So you really have to follow the manual with German stuff.

    Just to benchmark, I pulled up the manual for a K8-K9 gixxer. Its rear caliper has three different fasteners doing three different things, and these are the recommended torques:

    33 N⋅m (3.3 kgf-m, 24.0 lb-ft)
    18 N⋅m (1.8 kgf-m, 13.0 lb-ft)
    16 N⋅m (1.6 kgf-m, 11.5 lb-ft)
  10. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    turns out the low 18ft lb torque value was NOT the problem for R1200GS. BMW by leaving off requirement of Loctite 243 with such low torque values was the problem.

    seems KTM 690 caliper bolts are spec'd at 25 Nm or 18ft lb .. but KTM requires Loctite 243 be used at those low torque values.
  11. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    It's 243...not 643.

    Having slept on this issue overnight, some of the problems very well have been the rider in the linked thread torqued to 18ft/lbs on dry threads. 18ft/lbs on dry threads is going to give a super-low clamp load that will allow the assembled part to side slip pretty easily.

    This observation backs up an drives home the importance of filling in the airspace found in between the male and female threads with a liquid that turns to a thermoset plastic with thread lubricating qualities to allow a sufficient clampload to be introduced into an assembly to keep it from falling apart.

    I went back and pulled a few Power Point slides directly related to the friction loss on lubricated threads vs. non-lubricated threads. Here's the talking points:

    Approximately 85 to 90% of the effort used to tighten a threaded fastener is lost to friction, which leaves only about 10 to 15% of that effort is used to generate clamp load.

    Another slide shows clampload (lbs.) generated on different base metals torqued to 10ft/lbs along with a calculated K Factor (Friction Factor)

    The following examples are listed as:
    Bolt Nut Washer K Factor Clampload

    Plain Cadmium Plain 0.15 2,805
    Zinc Plain Zinc 0.35 1,546
    Zinc Zinc Zinc 0.55 960


    The table listed above shoes that Zinc is a very sticky coating with a very high K factor. The low clampload backs up the claim that zinc plated fasteners are sticky.

    Dirty
  12. just jeff

    just jeff Long timer

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    I have NEVER understood the requirement of torquing fasteners dry. It makes more sense to me to specify what lubricant to use.
    Could someone technically oriented explain what circumstances that REQUIRE non lubricated assembly and why, other than on applications such as oxygen service where the lubricant becomes a dangerous contaminant?

    Regards....justjeff
  13. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    thanks again for your valuable input on this issue. above agrees with my assessment that when using a low torque value like 18ft lb on a brake caliper in a vibration rich environment. use of a thread locker like Loctite 243 insures bolt will not back out from low clamploads (lbs) resulting from use of 18ft lb torque values.

    seems loctite's lubricity also aids in overcoming stickiness from finish on fasteners and it's effects on final clamploads. this really points out importance of careful cleaning with low residual solvents when reusing existing bolts.
  14. GasGas300

    GasGas300 Been here awhile

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    For a KLR, tyeing fishing string around the bolt works
    and is cheap
  15. just jeff

    just jeff Long timer

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    That's so when it falls out you don't lose it!!:rofl

    jj
  16. Dave in Wi

    Dave in Wi Long timer

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    Ok I bought an aftermarket part (starter tensioner tamer) that came with a nice little packet of Loctite 262. Unfortunately I left it in my garage over the winter, exposed to temps well below 0F.

    Can I use it, or should I get a new pack? It says for industrial use only so I'm not sure I can pop down to Autozone & grab one.
  17. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    It'll be fine Dave.

    Not a worry.

    Dirty
  18. Dave in Wi

    Dave in Wi Long timer

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    Thanks, didn't expect a reply that quickly!
  19. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    I had foot surgery (8 screws and a plate installed) this past Wed after an off on a pre-ride of the Arkansas 500.

    I'm stuck here at the house and ain't going too far from the computer for the next 8 to 10 weeks, so any questions are gonna get a speedy response.

    Dirty
  20. just jeff

    just jeff Long timer

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    Soooo....Are you gonna post up the Dirty details:eek1 in the Face plant thread?:D Hope you heal up well and soon!
    jj