Lots of assembly required.....

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by CosentinoEngineering, Aug 29, 2011.

  1. CosentinoEngineering

    CosentinoEngineering Been here awhile

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    #81
  2. Y E T I

    Y E T I Unpossible

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    I'm not an engineer, hell I can barely walk through a garage without tripping, but this is soooo cool to me! Sort of like Pyndon's on-going 950 thread...

    IN! :freaky
    #82
  3. Z50R

    Z50R Not lost yet

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    I like a few of these:

    I think it would brake my heart if someone took my motor. Not from a financial/cheating standpoint so much as that is a lot of love and time for someone to take from you. I guess the rule of thumb has to be: make more than one of every thing you make.

    Obviously the restrictions are for safety and to keep racing (relatively) affordable. Why are pneumatic activated valves forbidden? Are electronic activated valves allowed? I don't know if the technology is refined enough but there was talk of solenoids driving the valves and I see that the rules don't exclude it, has anyone done it yet?
    This looks like an awesome hobby taken to the next level.
    #83
  4. aprilian

    aprilian Can I change this?

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    Rules sometimes make me chuckle :rofl

    Rear wheel max width 6.00" or 6.25"
    #84
  5. tex_downey

    tex_downey Been here awhile

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    so cool, so cool. i hope you are able to sell them one day. :evil
    #85
  6. sakurama

    sakurama on an endless build

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    We talked about this and the idea was to make the engine inexpensively enough that you could afford it to be claimed every weekend. It's one advantage Chris has over Honda - he has little overhead and is willing to live on Ramen to see this project through.

    Wow, Chris, those rules are amazing! If they stay in place Moto 2 would become the most interesting series in the world. It would be like the glory days of Bears with the Britten. The series needs it (and your bike) to shake it up. Hell, with real prototypes I'd rather watch that than MotoGP!
    :clap

    Gregor
    #86
  7. CosentinoEngineering

    CosentinoEngineering Been here awhile

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    Always gets in the way of the fun projects. Sorry about dropping off for a few days, its been been a bit crazy around here.

    Anyway, that post to the FIM website was the impetus behind changing my project from a single cylinder to a multi. That rule package was intended to create the replacement class for the 250GP class. A 250GP bike is a fearsome machine. It looks compact and manageable, but the 250cc two stroke powerplant has a viscous power delivery and can easily highside and send a rider into low earth orbit. Ask Gregor how his ankles are doing these days. His 250 was a lively one and he was never shy on the throttle! The GP change was a push from the manufacturers to mothball 2 stroke motorcycle racing in order to make room for 4 stroke machines intended to help them improve their production machines. You know, the street bikes they race in World Superbike.

    After reading the initial rule package I knew what had to be done: build a true GP bike. A GP bike is a true race bike unlike most of what people see when they watch motorcycle racing. Now I may come off as a bit of a snob here, but so what. Most motorcycle racing is done by purchasing a street bike, removing a bunch of parts (lights, emissions controls) and then going racing. This is a perfectly acceptable way to go racing but if you're feeling a bit creative it can be quite limiting in that in the interest of keeping a level playing field you are not allowed to seriously modify or replace any major components. Bummer. A GP race bike is a vehicle that was never intended to be used on public roads. If you take a part off a GP bike it usually won't run, meaning that there is nothing on the bike that is not dedicated to going as fast as possible around a track. Lights, kickstand, even a starter system, are all considered not necessary for the task at hand: racing.

    Anyway, for a speed freak and bike designer like myself a GP bike is the holy grail. To get a chance to actually design one from scratch is like......., well I can't even think of an appropriate analogy.

    Here was the chance staring me in the face. I jumped in with both feet, not worrying about any of the what-ifs or other possible drawbacks. It was a few busy months. I was able to quickly determine that the chassis and suspension that had been designed for the big single would be just right for a V4 600cc. The only problem was that no current V4 600cc engine existed. Never one to shy away from a big challenge I enthusiastically started research on what a 600cc V4 configuration would be and how i could go about building several.

    Once I had a high degree of confidence that the overall design was doable I started hunting up some funding as this would definitely be too much of stretch to go it alone. I am lucky enough to know a motorcycle collector why was enticed to help out with the project. He was mostly obsessed with vintage Norton race machines but that actually was a big help. He had in his collection several one-off factory race prototypes and knew the potential value of having a one-off to add to his collection. After a few meetings we agreed on how to proceed and I started in earnest to work out the incredible number of design details that would make or break the project.

    Progress was smooth until the unthinkable happened. At this point I'll leave you all hanging again, but tomorrow I will continue on. I'll also start to put up more pretty pictures as this narrative stage is getting a bit boring for me to type and I assume for you all to read.

    See you tomorrow....
    #87
  8. MiteyF

    MiteyF Long timer

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    Certainly NOT boring :freaky
    #88
  9. AKjeff

    AKjeff Long timer

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    The narrative is fascinating, I love the back story and hearing about the design process.
    I am looking forward to the engine pics too.
    #89
  10. katumo_jtb

    katumo_jtb bogus journeyer

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    This thread is like crack. More!
    #90
  11. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    +1
    #91
  12. sakurama

    sakurama on an endless build

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    :lurk

    G$
    #92
  13. papaduc

    papaduc Been here awhile

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    You gotta stop doing that...I'm and oldish person and my heart can't take the suspense :huh
    #93
  14. CosentinoEngineering

    CosentinoEngineering Been here awhile

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    Getting blindsided is never fun and the memory seems to get permanently imprinted on your brain. I remember being at a kayak expo buying a paddle (carbon/kevlar, nice!) and trying on a PFD when my phone rings. Is it a buddy of mine, Scott Kolb, who tells me to sit down. He had bad news. Very bad news. Apparently the Grand Prix commission had just released an announcement that the Moto2 class would be powered by as an as-yet unspecified spec engine. The press release can be read here. I've never been so devastated by a single sentence: 'The commission unanimously accepted the proposition of the MSMA to have a “One Make Engine Regulation” in the Moto2 class.'

    For those who don't know the MSMA is the Motorcycle Sport Manufacturers Association, or Aprilia, Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Yamaha. Considering that the only 600cc engine configuration made by any of these companies is an inline 4 I knew quite clearly that my project as conceived was screwed. After calling everyone I could think of that had any contacts in the GP paddock (a very short list) it became apparent that this had been a done deal for a while and that Honda would be supplying the engines. Final announcements would be forthcoming.

    Now I must admit to being a bit naive and idealistic in thinking that we could design a bike and hop right onto the world GP grid. Although I knew the design had good performance potential I figured to get a wildcard or two and if the bike's performance was good enough then interest from existing teams would be my ticket to play. Isn't being naive fun? The world is so straightforward. Not! This simple introduction to the intricacies of GPs showed me how the rule packages are negotiated in closed rooms by corporations with high secrecy then slowly released to the public. Now if this was production racing then I would not have a problem with that approach. The manufacturers produce street-legal sportbikes in high volumes so they must be able to have a say in the rule structure. However, since Grand Prix racing is by definition prototype racing there is no production facility depending on continuity of rule packages. However as is usual with most governing bodies, common sense is turned upside down. Superbike racing rulebooks, built around modified production motorcycles, were written by a body with no manufacturer input. Grand Prix racing rulebooks, built around race-only prototypes, were written by production motorcycle manufacturers! Weird, huh?

    After coming to grips with harsh reality I had a choice: keep making my own bike and be a lone voice in the wilderness, or redesign around an inline 4 and attempt to get a grid position. I had been in talks with Barry Gilsenan of Celtic Racing, a top privateer AMA team and also one with a lot of international experience, both in getting European riders into the US and US riders into European series. He was interested in the project and had offered an invite to attend any of his team's test days once the bike was ready. If it was fast he would do what he could to get it out onto the international stage. Barry wanted to get back to the GP paddock and it was a good possibility that my bike could be part of the effort. After looking into applying for a grid position he was told point blank- don't waste your time. Apparently there was plenty of interest from European teams and nobody had any reason to bounce a European team for a relatively unknown US team. Talk about an ol' boys club!

    I did still have the option to build a bike around a CBR600 engine (the chosen Moto2 powerplant) and hope that the Moto2 format would trickle down to national series where I would have a chance to participate. Lets see, on one hand I can continue designing the bike of my dreams. On the other hand I could build a bike around the least exciting engine style in the hopes that years down the line I'd be able to race it. Tough choice. After taking to my collector buddy it became apparent that as a collector he could give 2 shits about a bike built around a CBR engine. At least we were on the same page!

    With his OK I continued on the current path. I'd make my V4 and go to whatever tracks I could and race wherever we could. One positive was that I did not have to design, fabricate, and sort a new motorcycle design on an extremely tight schedule.

    This about covers the backstory of how I got to be designing a bike like this. it's been a lot of fun so far and now that the engine is getting close to completion there will be some fruits of my labor I can actually show people. i'll continue on from here with posts documenting progress along the way.

    There is one open issue with the Moto2 approach. The initial spec engine rule for the Moto2 class was 3 years long which ends in 2012. The members of the sanctioning body (Dorna/FIM/IRTA/MSMA) are now writing the Moto2 rulebook for the next 3 years from 2013 -2015. They want to open the engine spec up to allow more manufacturers to participate but preliminary tendencies are to limit engines to ones that use production crankcases as a basis. This would still exclude me as my engine cannot be considered a production design under their requirements. I was at the recent Indy GP and spoke with Dorna technical director Mike Webb and he encouraged me to write him with costing information of my current engine to show that a bespoke design does not necessarily mean extreme costs. With the extended global recession going on the rule makers are extremely concerned with keeping the costs of being competitive from ballooning out of control. I understand this concern but, as usual, the mechanisms that they wanted to put into place would only create the appearance of low cost. Any teams with more resources would be able to spend them developing a better engine. I am in communications with Mike hoping to indicate concrete ways to keep costs down without imposing a production engine base. These talks are still ongoing and I hope will bear fruit. If it does you can definitely expect to see the bike on a GP grid in 2013. If not you'll hear my scream around the world and then see me at local races wherever we are allowed to.

    That's all for now.
    #94
  15. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

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    Great story man...unbelievable!

    Can't wait for you to take us through the design/build!

    Way to go Chris!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    #95
  16. Lutz

    Lutz Killer Rabbit

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    To play on a popular saying from the site - This thread is worthless without narrative!
    #96
  17. tex_downey

    tex_downey Been here awhile

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    I agree, i went threw a lot of pics on his blog, but its really cool to get the back story. I know I know i rarely read threads i just look at pics. :rofl but this is so cool.
    #97
  18. CosentinoEngineering

    CosentinoEngineering Been here awhile

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    Now that I was on my own as far as fitting into a rule structure goes it was time to start the process of figuring out where to put what. I had a pretty decently evolved rolling chassis CAD model from the original single cylinder project and needed to see how many changes would be required to adapt it or the V4. Since engine weight and power out wiull be drastically different even if the engine fits between the frame rails I can't expect that the chassis pivot points and behavior will want to be exactly the same.

    [​IMG]

    The chassis design uses the same techniques as the 2nd and 3rd versions. I've developed a sort of design program inside my Pro-Engineer CAD software that can generate the pivot point locations given the values and variations of several inputs, such as center of gravity locations, brake dive, on-throttle squat, braking and acceleration load transfer, etc, etc, etc. Notice how I never mentioned such things as 'trail' or wheelbase'. Variables like trail and wheelbase are derived properties and are generated by a bunch of equations that govern the bike's dynamic behavior. Actually, the equations do not describe the bike's dynamic behavior but it's quasi-static behavior. Quasi static behavior is much simpler than dynamic behavior and I feel it is more relevant to the design process for a motorcycle as its parameters tell you how the motorcycle generally reacts to inputs. I'm not even sure that anyone is actually doing meaningful dynamic analysis of complete motorcycles as part of the design process. It is that complex and makes car simulation seem like child's play.

    So what I do is set up these equations then use the CAD program to graphically evaluate them on an accurate skeleton model of a preliminary design. This is an important point in that you need to start the program with an initial desig or 'guess' to allow it to proceed. if you give it a crappy initial design there is no guarantee the program will end up with a good final design. As with eny expert system it is important to use the operator's experience as valuable input. After running several optimization routines the result is a lot of intersecting lines laid over a stick figure drawing of the bike. At this stage all that is important is the side profile and life is simple. Once the engine shape and configuration is finalized then this stick figure will be stretched into the 3rd dimensions and that's where all the work comes in.

    [​IMG]

    It looks very confusing but embedded in the curves and where they cross is information on how the bike behaves to rider and road input. I've hidden a few important lines and shown a very early model as this is where a hell of a lot of thought and IP has been generated and I don't want to lay it all out for anyone to see. From certain of these intersections I can construct the front control arm and rear swingarm geometry. Presto, you have a bike! Well, not that fast. What I have are pivot locations that will (hopefully) provide the behavior that was provided as input.

    After the engine width information is added there is a TON of details to work through to make sure that the pivot locations do not deflect under loading, that all pivots move with low friction, that the parts can be manufactured with a reasonable tolerance and cost, and above all to make sure everything fits and is not too heavy. I end up getting and reworking a lot of accessory supplies from racecar fabrication shops like The Chassis Shop and Pegasus Racing. The mindset for a motorcycle is completely different to a car. For a car guy space is not a driving issue and an extra ounce or 2 is usually acceptable. For a bike both of these are of utmost importance. A bike that is too long or too heavy will create a chain of additional compromises that will result in decreased performance. Considering that the podium is usually decided by 1-3 sec at the end of a 40 min race that means you need to be at 99.5% out of the box and soon at 99.9%. There's no room for error so if every part is custom, every part needs to be though about from end to end to make sure it is everything it needs to be and nothing more. Its a lot of work but when it all works out damn it is pleasing!


    In the next post I'll go how I used a similar technique to design the engine.
    #98
  19. jake28

    jake28 Riding to the horizon.

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    If you don't mind, could you explain a few of the curves and lines in the stick figure drawing. It doesn't have to be an overly detailed description and some of the lines (ie. wheels) are pretty intuitive. In particular, what do the two curves, the first moving upwards from the front wheel, and the second from the rear wheel to the handle bars, represent?
    #99
  20. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    I'd also be quite interested to hear about the idlers in the driveline. Are the primarily for packaging, or for...... [insert the patented Jeremy Clarkson dramatic pause here] something else? Are they fixed-position, or spring-loaded? Adjustable?