So I tried to plan a very local mini-ADV ride using both of these web based map services. I had laid out a fairly interesting 30 mile or so loop for a quick afternoon ride before work. Took off on the ride. Turns out all of the interesting secondary roads I wanted to try were either trail-looking driveways with a closed cattle gate in front of them, or maybe some lost trail back in the woods. I don't have a GPS so I couldnt just play with that and make my own adventure as I went so that wasn't an option for me. So bottom line is I cant use either of those for any kind of DECENT non interstate/statehighway route planning. Anyone have a different(read BETTER) online mapmaker they use?