Mechanical Facts and Falsities

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by everycredit, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    Yep, handling for a cruiser is a totally different animal than that of a sporbike, a sport tourer, a dual sport, or any other bike as they are relative to each other. It's all about whatever one likes and wants. Kind of like the car tire thing (not really intending to dive into that) not too good for the motocross or road race riding styles. I still see the attraction for me if I was in the circumstances and wanted to do so. I see the tire wear benefit for flat open riding. If I was into the wide open road type riding versus the tight supermotoish and dirt/gravel stuff I do, the car tire thing might suit. But for what I do it doesn't.

    Now if you can just get the same wife effect going on a sportbike, a supermoto, a dual sport, a few vintage bikes, and whatever else trips your trigger you're in good! You could have a garage full for her.
  2. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    and you know this cause you tried it ? :rofl

    I experimented with the darkside as a winter experiment, a couple years ago, I began running studded motorcycle (Metzeler Karoo Ts) on my V-strom 1000, what I found was front tire planted well, but with 1000cc twin, it was still tricky not spinning up the rear tire or breaking traction with deceleration

    year #2 I kept my studded Karoo in front and put a General Altimax Arctic (not studded) in the back

    results, successful beyond my wildest expectations and when spring came, I didn't take it off when I took the studded front off and put an unstudded Karoo on for spring summer & fall

    EVERY tire is a compromise of some sorts, knobbies aren't the greatest for sport touring/pavement, ST tires aren't the greatest for loose gravel

    things I don't like about the CT:
    1.slow speed feel, takes a while to get used to and I still don't like it

    2.off road/single track feel, but the V-strom 1000 really isn't a dirt bike to begin with

    3. amplifies any deficiencies in suspension, worn bushings etc. (forced me to get rid on the stock suspension and replace like I shoulda to begin with so in a way its good, lets you know when things are on their way out))

    4. gave my bike cancer, riding on sloppy winter roads and briney slush gets everywhere


    things that are just different with the CT that you get used to and don't mind:
    1.slightly heavier (and I mean ever so slightly) countersteer effort, but probably no different than the effort required if I were to mount a similar size MC tire, the CT I have is a 205/50-17 rather than the stock 150/70-17

    2.normal dry & wet pavement cornering grip (street) I'm not talking about doing track days

    3.doesn't slip and slide when you expect it too

    things I like about the CT:
    1.unbelievable traction in snow, ice, freezing rain

    2.great in deep mud (front tire is limitation)

    3.great in deep sand (again front tire is limitation)

    4.great in loose gravel

    5.weight rating suitable for the loads I put on my bike, with my 300lb lard ass +pillon & gear, I am well over the max load rating on ANY bike tire

    6.long lasting, I'm over 20k so far with 75% treadlife left

    7.shorter stopping distance, the rear brake actually does something

    in the end, its dirt/gravel where the CT is least compromising, and I still would like a spare rear wheel with a MC tire

    CTs are not for everybody
  3. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    This make absolutely NO sense.
  4. ianbh

    ianbh Been here awhile

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    Originally Posted by Orygunner [​IMG]
    I don't think motorcycle tires are a conspiracy in any way. However, the reason that no manufacturer makes motorcycle tires that look and work like car tires IS because of money.

    Tire manufacturers aren't in business to cater to the whims of TINY segments of their riding customers. There's absolutely nothing for them to gain financially by doing any R&D on a flat-profile, long lasting motorcycle tire, let alone testing regular car tires on motorcycles. It would be money down the drain for them, and that's no way to run a company.
    ...Orygunner...



    What part of Orygunner's statement did you find confusing?

    Ian, Iowa
  5. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    Oh let's see how about the part that if there is money in it they will build it.

    The dumbsiders can spout all they want to but putting a flat surfaced tire on a vehicle that leans to turn is not a bright idea.

    Yes I have ridden three bikes with car tires. NO I did not like it. Unlike some naysayers I personally do see a benefit for people riding big heavy mile eaters that stick mostly to the Super Slab. They do get better wear and on the slab there is little to no downside to the car tire being run.

    To me that takes away too much of the reason I ride a motorcycle in the first place.

    The litigation that would follow a tire manufacturer building flat tires for bikes would take all the profit out of building them. That is why they do not do it.

    Vehicles that lean to turn work best on rounded tires. It really is that simple.

    A dumbsider will never admit to that. While it IS because of money it IS NOT for the reason he states.
  6. Kamloopsrider

    Kamloopsrider Been here awhile

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    Thanks for that, in Canada we sometimes refer to England as Blighty. Usually when some pompous ass tries to explain to us that the U.K. does things properly and the rest of the planet doesn't. It was also good of you to remind us what a great sea power England was. If wooden ships make a comeback we are all up shit creek.
    Rule Brittania!
  7. willis 2000

    willis 2000 neo-quixote

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    The local Euro shop's mantra is 40psi tire pressure, front and rear. Tires last longer, they say. A better plan is start with the manufacturer's recommendation, adjust for optimum handling. A coupla psi (+-) makes a difference.
  8. Orygunner

    Orygunner Adventurer

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    While litigation would be a factor to consider, I propose that there wouldn't be any profit for them even IF they never got sued. The're in the business to make money. What's the point of throwing money at researching something that wouldn't make them any?

    You're somewhat correct, that MOST vehicles that lean to turn work best on rounded tires. That's why MOST riders, even when faced with a manufacturer approved choice, would choose round-profile motorcycle tires.

    Nobody's suggesting that all motorcycles should have car tires, or that everyone should be using them.

    Randyo made some great points in his post, that different tires have different advantages and disadvantages. Put a knobby on your dual-sport you've traded on-road traction away for off-road traction. Put a sticker tire on your sport bike, you've traded longevity away for better traction. Put a car tire on your motorcycle, you've traded a few handling differences for better traction and tire life.

    If you're trying to argue that nobody should ever run a car tire on any motorcycle, that makes as much sense as trying to argue that nobody should ever run knobbies on the street and everyone should use super-sticky performance tires on every bike, because that's how every motorcycle is going to work the best.

    ...Orygunner...
  9. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    No, I actually read what some of you dark siders wrote in a few forums.

    If you actually read what I have listed that I own and ride you wouldn't be a baiting anus. Still have problems with that 'vacuum braking' thing, huh?

    By the way, when your CT bike can cut some laps on par with the same kind of bike with regular tires, (and I'm not talking about how you "feel" it works, I'm talking real world head to head comparisons) let me know.
  10. Orygunner

    Orygunner Adventurer

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    I would be 100% confident the car tire would meet that challenge. Pit two heavy cruisers (like my Vulcan 2000) on the same track, one with street MC tires, one with a rear mounted car tire, and I predict the car tire bike will be equally as fast as the MC tire shod identical machine.

    ...Orygunner...
  11. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    take identical bikes to the track with various tires, I would predict that the bike with supersport rubber would perform best, the one with the car tire would be in the middle of performance and the one with motorcyle knobbies would perform worse

    all tires are a compromise and vacuum is still the major source of engine braking, when you roll off the thottle you are restricting the intake, not the exaust
  12. SteelJM1

    SteelJM1 Undercover KTM rider

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    wrong thread :D
  13. Andy-Gadget

    Andy-Gadget Any bike can go anywere

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    Watching a mate fire up his bevel, with gear cover window, it was the reverse of this.
    As soon as the bike fired the window filled up with oil, all the way to the top, no gears visible, and didn't empty out until the oil got up to temperature, at which point my mate would ride away.
    The return of cold, thick oil was the problem, not the supply.

    Yes it is cool to watch the spiral bevel gears wizzing around.

    Only owned one bevel deadcsat, and wisely sold it on, call me a ludite if you want, but give me pushrods.
  14. the Pheasant

    the Pheasant Been here awhile

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    Nope. I took the plug out today to see what would happen. About 1 second at idle after firing, oil began to flow fairly copiously but not "spray". It did not come out in a jet. As I stated, the plug covers the end of the pressurised gallery that feeds the camshaft bearings. If it were a plug for a gravity return, it wouldn't be much of a guide to oil pressure.

    Sure it's inconsequential. Thought we were kind of agreed on that. But it's inconsequential because it happens fast enough in a healthy motor to ensure that oil reaches rubbing surfaces where it is needed before wear takes place. If it didn't, it would be of great consequence. And the reason that it is "fast enough" is because the function of oil flow is to ensure there is a film of oil present, not to keep surfaces apart by pressure itself. This is obvious from the operation of cam followers, which depend not on a pressurised supply but on some sort of splash lubrication. I.e. oil deposited on the cam keeps it and the follower apart - for at least one period of contact. If it is not replenished, then eventually it gets displaced completely and wear takes place between surfaces.
    High oil pressure is not an absolute requirement for plain bearings; the cam bearings on older Laverdas run on about 8psi. A constant supply of clean oil is.

    Not quite what I said. I took care to wait until the oil pressure light went out before riding the bike. As you say, once the light has gone out it is reasonable to suppose oil pressure is sufficient. FWIW, the 900 Diversion has no oil pressure light, only one that warns of low oil level.
  15. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    Ludite. :lol3
  16. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    No kidding!

    Oh, so you're saying the exhaust valve is a screen door.
  17. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    Try it on the Nighthawk.

    Actually I'm not sure the Vulcan qualifies as a bike... two wheeled tank, maybe. Kind of puts the "gunner" part of your tag in context. With the 2000's clearance I'm not sure the Vulcan could make it around the tightest curves on a track without having to stop and back up... :lol3

    Just teasin', I know what you're saying. That was actually to a Concours owner, where there would be major differences. But I'm not in disagreement that there are times and places where I can see the square tread style working good. Heck it works good for trials bikes in their applications as well.
  18. Orygunner

    Orygunner Adventurer

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    Love it... Just added that as part of my signature :)

    In the bike's defense though, even with a MC tire, it's capable of turning around on a four lane road if the shoulders are wide enough. :ricky

    ...Orygunner...
  19. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    I just remember when they came out I was still selling part time. At 5'6" but with a relatively long inseam, I got on the thing and it was one serious mass object to stand up on its two tires from the sidestand! I'm betting the stability of the bike is on par with a barge, since it is a serious contender for "Land Barge of the Third Millenium" award... but we have to wait until 3000 to give the award. :deal Kawasaki woulda had the Second Millenium award it if they'd built the bike in 99!

    I'm thinking that has to be one stable ride on an open road and I kinda think the car tire on the back makes sense. Fact is the old Firestones and whatever that were run on the Harleys over the decades of the 30s through the 60s were very square tread designs. Kind of tells you they wouldn't get too good of wear out of any crowned more sporting motorcycle tire either. Thus my comments about the car tires in the right circumstances.

    You know, the only real concern in my book is that at least Michelin claims there are some differences in bead design from the car to motorcycle tires. If I was to do the car tire I'd be looking at that for sure. But the facts are they do appear to seat and work on the bike rims, quite obviously. I'm wondering if it has to do with the actual rim diameter or bead depth. It would be interesting if one of you dark siders would do the measurements, maybe do the precision mold compound deal to make a bead cross section from a car rim and a bike rim to determine if there really is a difference of any consequence or that it is a white lie to try to get motorcyclists to not run car tires.

    Ah well, may the wind be at your back and you break the wake of anyone crossing your path with the Vulcan 2000 land yacht without consequence. :lol3

    You are a good sport, by the way. :freaky
  20. helotaxi

    helotaxi Been here awhile

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    My dad has a 2004 and we have done 3 trips together. He's 6'7" and 320# and it fits him. After this summers trip in the Smokies his response was "apparently I don't know how to ride a motorcycle". I think that 99% was the 2-wheeled land yacht that he was riding. Great on the 4-lane; hammered dog shit in the twisties.