Michigan Helmet Laws - A Detailed Look Into a Newly Helmetless State

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Anywhereness, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. PhilB

    PhilB Long timer

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    +1. This, too.

    :thumb

    Ask the same about anyone caring for or has lost someone who was injured or killed on a motorcycle who was wearing his gear. The exact same argument applied to prohibiting ANY risky or destructive behavior. Ask someone who is caring for or has lost someone who was injured or killed skydiving, scuba diving, horseback riding, hang gliding, bicycling, skateboarding, hunting, alligator wrestling, or chainsaw juggling. Even more, ask someone who is caring or has lost someone who has cancer from smoking, heart disease from eating poorly, obesity from couch potatoing, and on and on and on. Are you going to micro-manage every aspect of everyone's lives to make sure they make the same risk choices you approve of?

    Just as you choose the risk of motorcycling, others have the right to choose their own risks. And don't have the right to choose yours for you.

    :clap

    PhilB
  2. Dirtbiker

    Dirtbiker Been here awhile

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    What about the law of gravity. And why do we need laws, to force people into wearing helmits? I told a friend. It should be common sence, to wear a helmit.
  3. GlennR

    GlennR Playin' in the Fire

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    Maybe we (bikers) should join up with the NRA. Nobody ever passes laws that they don't approve of.


    We could get rid of helmet laws, speed limits, DWI's, .....
  4. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    There are millions more of us to generate mail to our elected representatives than the AMA can get. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
  5. atomicalex

    atomicalex silly aluminum boxes

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    Hmmm, on the topic of personal liberty and such...

    I've been in Germany for 2.5 years now, living "on the economy". This means as a normal German, not as a USAF member. I have to conform to German law. It's interesting. Over here, personal liberty is also prized (American things are highly prized, because Germans lionize the Old West and its free-for-all culture), and surprisingly broad. It comes with a high price, though: personal responsibility. It is also well-defined: personal means personal, and without impact on others.

    What the liberty-at-all-costs types rarely bring up is the level of personal responsibility they are willing to take on to gain this liberty they crave. Namely, how much insurance are you willing to carry for this "right"?

    I put the price of riding helmetless at carrying $50M in personal injury (and passenger personal injury) coverage. That seems about right for a lifetime (or two) of care. Who is willing to pay that (take on the personal responsibility) for the right to ride helmetless?
  6. catweasel67

    catweasel67 Honda XRV 750 RD04

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    but you know it's still illegal to not wear a helmet right? and no amount of insurance is going to stop a policeman from giving you a ticket if he/she wants to?
  7. bridwell52

    bridwell52 Banned

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    Does this debate ever change.
    Move along kiddies,nothing to see here.
  8. duck

    duck Banned

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    And what price tag do you put on a lifetime of care for a helmeted rider?

    Ever seen a FF helmeted rider T-bone a left-turning minivan at about 30 MPH and die instantly? I did a couple of years ago. Had that person been in the same accident in a car he would've walked away with maybe a bloody nose from an airbag and a sore shoulder from a seat belt.

    Helmets merely mitigate the risk of injury. They do not eliminate it.
  9. atomicalex

    atomicalex silly aluminum boxes

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    It's a good question, but the wrong one. The cost of riding helmeted is the same as for every other road user subject to the assorted laws of the state. Usually carrying 100/300 is sufficient. I'm asking what the additional cost of riding helmetless should be, or could be. If the difference between what people are willing to pay to do it and the actuarial cost is significanty negative (actuarial cost is higher than price willing to pay), then the helmet law makes sense. If the costs are relatively the same, then clearly the cost (in terms of additional insurance premiums) is not significant and things can proceed sans helmets. Currently, helmetless riders have the voluntary responsibility to carry and extra 20K or so of insurance. This is not much. I'm saying raise the cost and make it mandatory.

    The cost of a ticket? Who cares. It's a few hundred euro, if that. It's hardly a deterent. The real deterent is insurance coverage: if I wreck without a helmet on over here, my insurance will not pay out. Germany has a two-tier health system: public insurance? Good luck with that. Bare minimums and not speedy. Private insurance? Go to the head of the class. No one in their right mind runs the risk of being sent to a state clinic when you can avoid it by wearing a lid.
  10. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    You're well on your way to being European. Personally, I'm unwilling to have to subordinate my constitutional rights to what any current regime deems to be in the "public interest", which is what exists in most Euro nations. Your $50M concept fits right into this Socialist line of thought.

    The Germans and many other Europeans are fascinated by the Wild West theme because it's an escape from the conformity that their society expects from them. They've traded their individualism for the security that a "nanny" state can provide.

    I've always worn head protection, and when I bought my first helmet, the only quality one made came from Bell. Everything else was substandard compared to it. So for me, the whole helmet discussion is moot.
  11. Cos

    Cos Re-Greekified

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    :oscar :oscar :oscar

    You got us pegged. We're all drones that march to the beat of little father's drum. :lol3 :lol3 :lol3
  12. atomicalex

    atomicalex silly aluminum boxes

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    He does, doesn't he?

    I guess he forgot that in the wild west, people paid for liberty with their lives. Makes paying for some extra insurance not seem like such a bad bargain...

    I'm not suggesting that you give up your "constitutional rights", I'm asking you to tell me how much they are worth to you.
  13. easyrider88

    easyrider88 POsIng PrO

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    if youve never sold illegal drugs you probably wont understand this.the EASY RIDER movie was about personal freedom.and selling cocaine for a profit.everybody has to march in line if they want to fit into polite society.if you sell illegal drugs, ride a custom harley without a helmet you are.......an outlaw.
  14. farmerstu

    farmerstu Been here awhile

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    please please stay in europe.i think you forget that many of my parents generation died in germany to protect our liberties. it makes me very sad that now so very many are willing to give them up so cheaply.
    THANKS PHILB, a clear voice of reason.
  15. BuddingGeezer

    BuddingGeezer Been here awhile

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    IMO, all legislation in the USA is bought by the lobbies. The AMA is a powerful lobby that has helped move 47 states with mandatory helmet use in the '70s to only 20 states today. Now the insurance companies have a more powerful lobby than the AMA. Why have very few and none of the major health insurers come out for mandatory helmet use. Health insurance companies have the money and lobbyist to get mandatory helmet use passed. It is know that with helmet use there are fewer deaths, but not necessarily less bodily injury. Health insurers pay claims for injury, not DEATH. If your dead, it doesn't cost the health companies a penny.

    I wear a helmet, ATGATT has saved my life, certainly from catastrophic injury this past year in a crash. However, if you want to ride in only a jock strap and ear muffs, have at it. No skin off my ass, maybe yours:freaky
  16. duck

    duck Banned

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    I find that my helmets slide better if I coat them in synthetic oil.:D
  17. atomicalex

    atomicalex silly aluminum boxes

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    I'm probably a bit closer to the war than you realize. I really, truly doubt that the people in my family who died in WWII were thinking about whether helmets should be required by law or not. They were more focused on the right to worship their deity of choice, in their chosen manner. A small difference.

    Extremism (NO LAWS!! EVER!!!!) doesn't get us anywhere. Discussing the issue intelligently does. The data in the OP give some insight and will eventually fuel the actuarial studies that will put a price on riding helmetless. Once that data is in and validated, there won't be room for discussion any more. ie - now is the time to prepare your second-level defense strategy.
  18. Butters

    Butters Kwyjibo

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    Does discussing the issue intelligently involve assuming actuarial studies that don't yet exist will validate your point of view over others? Does intelligent discussion also assume a study will somehow overcome different people's views on the degree to which they value personal freedom?

    Even if we were to assume that helmetless riding costs society some amount of money, at what amount does it justify mandating an individual's choice? Intelligent, moral people can disagree on that and no study will ever prove them wrong because it is an issue of values, not science. Much like people choosing how or if they practice their religion, people can have different, valid views and how much government interference they find acceptable.

    Some people find ANY government interference in their choices unacceptable while others want to use the government to enforce their views upon others. Most people probably fall into a million different positions along the spectrum between those views. Please explain how some actuarial study (that likely could never quantify a number anyway) will invalidate somebody's values.

    I'm curious too if a number generated by a study would make you support an outright ban on motorcycling since I'm fairly certain it would be shown that riding motorcycles has a significant societal cost. Maybe you simply forgot to take into account the unquantifiable value of a societal benefit such as freedom of choice.
  19. GlennR

    GlennR Playin' in the Fire

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    It seems wearing a helmet is equivilant to wearing a seatbelt, yet there is no ongoing debate over wearing seatbelts.

    The "freedom & rights" argument is really weak considering all the "real freedoms" that we do not have in the US.

    (Regardless of our political views, there are numerous things that most of us feel we should have the right to do. And then there's the unfairness of our taxation, and the unfairness of the government's spending & distribution of those funds...)

    I guess there's the "Soap Box" forum (or wharever it's called here) for political debates....:freaky
  20. farmerstu

    farmerstu Been here awhile

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    thanks butters,
    again someone said it better than me. it's not about helmets, or guns, or the tsa, or search and seizure, it's about all of it. a chip here a chip there and soon the bill of rights will be meaningless.