morini twins

Discussion in 'Old's Cool' started by huub, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. robbie0365

    robbie0365 Adventurer

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    Zeroviz, what do you use for air filtration on your Camel powered 350 ?. And what gearing do you run ?.

    I know the Gilera brake set-up is quite good, that's why I chose this above a single disc.
    Furthermore I have inherited a mill and lathe, so a good opportunity to learn some new skills machining disc carriers, caliper adapters, rearset carriers etc.
    #81
  2. zeroviz

    zeroviz Adventurer

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    Well, actually I haven't put the camel motor in yet :( ....Morinis are in storage elsewhere at the moment.
    I have run k&N style pod filters on my 3 1/2, but there was always some kind of stutter.......the price for looking cool. Its really important to make some kind of strut or hanger to support the card though, otherwise the rubber manifold takes all the weight and will crack. These are hard to get now.
    I will be going back to the airbox on my original sport.

    My friend in the UK runs pods on his 501 engined 350 and it seems to run very well, and sounds great with the 2 into 1He also has a nice 320mm floating disc on the front end too.
    Its this one.
    #82
  3. robbie0365

    robbie0365 Adventurer

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    Rubber elbows and manifolds are easy to find new, especially for a 350.
    The hardest parts to find are the exhaust header pipes for a 500. In the end I bought a stainless set from NLM. Not cheap though.
    Material and finish is good, the fit is so-so, this will need some work.

    For this conversion you'll find some problem areas.
    No OEM airbox will fit, you'll have to use pod filters or make your own airbox.
    If you use rearsets like Tarozzi, these need to be modified. If you use the original awkward footrests these will fit.
    If you have the 478cc engine you will need the early type cam covers for clearance.
    Only the early type side cover will clear the left exhaust header.
    Etc.etc.
    #83
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  4. robbie0365

    robbie0365 Adventurer

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    20171005_213752.jpg First test-fitting of my cheap-ass mufflers from Germany.

    20171005_213703.jpg

    For € 80 a set they look quite nice, chrome and finish look good, albeit a bit long. Will only need a simple bracket to fit to my liking.
    20171005_213722.jpg

    Next step; make a set of footrest baseplates.
    #84
  5. pikl

    pikl Adventurer

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    Are the brakes really worth to be converted that much? I find the original single disc brakes are quite good for normal riding. I guess the cast discs are better, but the 4-pot brake is hardly needed for such a light bike.

    Does a larger pad actually increase the stopping force? Friction depends on the force and drag coefficient, and is not depended on surface area. Bigger pads may not wear as fast, but I doubt the actual braking force is different, it just works on a bigger area and thus the pressure is smaller at the same force (so they do not wear as fast). Same as with tyre width, you'd think a wider tyre gives more grip, but that is not really true (maybe a bit, but neglectable, wider tyres are used for racing cause softer compounds can then be used, but on the road mostly for style and heavy/powerful bikes need them as narrow tyres cannot cope with so much weight or power) - actually, handling on narrow tyres is better (you lean less in a turn at the same speed). Twin discs and larger pads are mainly used for better heat dissipation and avoiding brake fade, but they will not give a better feel without a different master cylinder. A larger diameter disc gives you more leverage, and is the best way to get more stopping "force" (actually, more torque) and a lighter lever (but a different master cylinder ratio goes a long way too). Or using a smaller diameter wheel and tyres.


    What I want to say is that, maybe you could achieve the same effect just by changing the master cylinder. I've swapped the master cylinder on my 350 Ducati Pantah (has classic brembo calipers and cast iron discs, same as small block Guzzis of that time), and I can easily use the brakes with one finger. Also, if you use 3 discs, I must say I was always impressed by the integrated braking system Guzzi used - the rear brake operated the rear disc and the front left disc, while the front brake operated the right front disc. It is a very simple system, but it works great. Using the rear brake really slows you down fast, and even if you stomp on it, the rear wheel will always block before the front because the weight shifts to the front under braking (so more traction on the front...). I rode a Guzzi for a while, and when I went back to other bikes, I realised I could stop much easier on the Guzzi - you can just stomp on the rear brake until the rear wheel blocks, the back off a bit and you decelerate really fast. On other bikes, it is harder to have a good feeling where is the limit, while on the Guzzi, you can go over the limit with the rear wheel and it will not be nearly as dangerous as doing it with the front...



    I still haven't started to work on my Kanguro. I have trouble finding a new crankshaft plain bearing somewhere...
    #85
  6. robbie0365

    robbie0365 Adventurer

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    Well, the original single disc setup doesn't cut it for me at all. No feel, no power. They are some sort of stainless, very heavy and not the best friction material.
    I am used to the usual modern 320mm 4pot sets, and want to replicate feel and power on the Morini.
    As the brakes are from a Gilera Nordwest, with similar weight and power, I really don't think it will be too much.
    Plan B is cast Brembos with the original calipers.

    Linked brakes ? Not for me, I nearly never use the rear brake anyway.
    #86
  7. pikl

    pikl Adventurer

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    Original Morini discs are quite unique. I believe they are forged steel, with a thick chrome coating over them. The chrome was machined at the factory, and offers a very good braking surface that does not wear much. however, with time, the chrome either wore off or the disc started to rust and the chrome flaked off. Once it is off, they have a very bad surface for braking (cast iron would be better, even early japanese stainless rotors were better than that plain steel). I was lucky to find a brand new vacuum packed original grimeca disc for my 350. I have no experience with worn discs, but I heard they are very bad... And restoring the chrome would supposedly be quite hard/expensive (a bit like restoring worn fork tubes, but machining fork tubes is easier than a flat relatively thin surface of a motorcycle brake disc - a lathe will go slightly conical if used for it... I guess grimeca somehow grinded/sanded them to the final thickness, not cut/machined)
    #87
  8. zeroviz

    zeroviz Adventurer

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    Yes they are steel, with a hard chrome finish. Mine started flaking off the one on my Camel so I had it surface ground, with the intent of getting it rechromed.
    In the meantime I put it back on and braking was pretty crap, but I'd also changed the master cylinder to a 1mm larger one (existing one was leaking badly) which didn't help.
    Triumph also chromed their pig heavy rotors in the seventies. Morini chromed rotors don't look mirror polished like those ones though :)
    #88
  9. robbie0365

    robbie0365 Adventurer

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    A bit of progress here.
    Bought a bandsaw to cut aluminum. As I am making my own rearsets which need to fit in a very small place I'll have to make a lot of templates before things are right.
    20171104_162318.jpg

    Space is very limited, but it should be do-able. This is still a template, but the position is set.

    20171104_162335.jpg

    20171104_162514.jpg

    The levers are one-off as well, made by my dad.
    Now I'm waiting for some chunks of Ergal so I can start machining the final hanger plates.
    #89
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  10. huub

    huub Been here awhile

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    nice job, it is a struggle to build rearsets on a morini , you've got the kickstarter swinging through the space you would want to use for the rearsets.
    i've seen nice master cylinders with incorporated reservoir on aliexpress, might be worth a look.

    my camel is running now , it took several tries to get a ignition running, must have spent a week on the electrics.
    just the risk you take when modifying a bike.
    but now it starts first kick! hasn't done that for the past 30 years.
    the chinese stator didn't work with the morini flywheel , instead of modifying the stator i ended up fitting a 350 stator, it now runs and charges.
    it still needs some work, the current 350 tank looks a bit out of place, the original grp tank is leaking.
    not sure what to do next, i would love to have a try making one..
    #90
  11. huub

    huub Been here awhile

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  12. robbie0365

    robbie0365 Adventurer

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    Hello Huub, unfortunately i'm not surprised the chinese rotor didn't work. The stator and rotor need to be matched.
    Making rearsets for a Morini is not easy, but we're getting somewhere now. Unfortunately a lot is depending on this; the fit of headers and silencers, the location of the rear brake actuation etc.
    I've seen these rear brake pumps with integrated reservoir. They look real cheap-ass to me, something I really hate and want to avoid with this build.
    #92
  13. huub

    huub Been here awhile

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    the only difference is the number of magnets in the flywheel , the morini flywheel has six magnets, and to fit the chinese stator ( it's a aftermarket aprilia mille part) it would need 4, 8 or 12 magnets.
    if the 350 stator proves to be too feeble, i will fit the aprilia flywheel, shouldnt be too hard, just one taper to change.
    in the meantime the 350 port clock needed new bezels.
    first strip the clocks, the old bezels were pretty corroded. [​IMG]

    to fit the new bezels clamp them in the lathe


    [​IMG]

    carefully hammer the edge down , and hey look! nice new clocks....
    a couple of hours well spent.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    #93
  14. robbie0365

    robbie0365 Adventurer

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    Looks good Huub.
    I am interested in your findings regarding the Aprilia Mille alternator setup. I don't want to be using the feeble standard one. Has this been done before ?
    There is a lathe in my shop, so making another taper shouldn't be an issue.
    #94
  15. pikl

    pikl Adventurer

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    I finally started rebuilding my Kanguro engine. Now I have a disassembled early 70's 3.5 engine, an X3 kanguro engine and my X1 kanguro engine on the floor, and another X0 (drum model) assembled one.
    [​IMG]
    Already got new bearings for it, and out of the three engines, I got one with a good main bearking surface, but I'll have to regrind and use oversize shells for the big end.
    I also have a pair of 400 pistons and lined cylinders, that I will use. I'm sure it'll pull a lot better now. Also, surprisingly, in all three engines, one gearbox ball bearing was bad (a litle seized). I guess it was a common problem.


    Here's the other engine I have, it runs good, so I'll rather not disassemble it now, and I'll use it as an emergency backup... Also a Guzzi T5 engine waiting for its turn in the back (had to replace the clutch, but never got around to reassemble the bike). Also a 400cc Goggomobile engine next to the Guzzi. And some V35 Imola fairings. And an NSU Prima tank. I have too many projects...
    [​IMG]
    #95
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  16. huub

    huub Been here awhile

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    you might check the camshaft of the canguru engine , some were fitted with the highly desirable L5 racing cam.
    i can relate to the too many projects , nowadays i prefer to keep the engines in one piece until i have all the parts for a rebuild ,
    keeping track of where you put the parts for which engine gets complicated

    i think NLM now stocks new main bearing shells , when they were unavailable i used to modify toyota camshaft bearings.
    #96
  17. pikl

    pikl Adventurer

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    Where would I see which camshaft it is? I did not see any markings on any camshaft.

    I think it is a shame they used plain bearings, as many Morinis seem to smoke a bit (probably oil gets through the valve guides, which are not sealed). Roller bearings may be a bit more resistant to low oil pressure, than plain bearings. And when they do go bad, they are cheap to replace and you do not need to regrind the crankshaft. Oh well, everything is always a tradeoff...
    #97
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  18. huub

    huub Been here awhile

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    check the inlet lift of the camshaft , the strada has 5,1 mm the sport 5,6 the fast camshaft has 5,95 mm lift
    #98
  19. Tanshanomi

    Tanshanomi Your Favorite Uncle

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    I'm sure you'll do a great job building your new engine; I'm sure that "emergency backup" engine won't be needed...

    ...and I'll gladly do you the favor of taking that useless thing off your hands so you won't end up tripping over it!
    #99
  20. pikl

    pikl Adventurer

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    The bike has been standing for a year now, and I have been really tempted to just use that engine and throw everything else on ebay. But I've already bought some things for it, so I decided I will finish what I started...


    Thanks Huub, I'll measure the camshafts tomorrow!