Moto Guzzi Stelvio (merged) threadfest...

Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by young skywalker, Jan 8, 2006.

  1. Nirvana

    Nirvana n00b

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    Geez, the guy had a major hardware failure that nearly cost him his life and this is your reply? I thought that kind of attitude was only found on the Harley forums.
  2. KMC1

    KMC1 There is no spoon.

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    The Internet really brings out the best in people, doesn't it? :topes
  3. stevie88

    stevie88 That's gotta hurt

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    We do know his side of the story.:deal
  4. Ham

    Ham Been here awhile

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    I am sorrowful for his crash...it could happen to anyone and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy....and now a moment of silence....................................I was referring to the load of crap he stated later. BAHAaAAAAAAA!
  5. Chev.

    Chev. The Final Drive?

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    Simply pointing out the fact that you find his statements crappy is not very informative.
  6. Mr. Canoehead

    Mr. Canoehead Taste Gunnels!

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    Fixed it for ya...




    :hide
  7. pyoungbl

    pyoungbl Colonel Blood

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    I'll add a data point to the 'fork leg broke and cause a crash' thread. I have been told that the poster put on a new front tire prior to his TransLab trip. This was done at a BMW shop. It seems to me that the liability for the crash really goes to the shop over torquing the pinch bolts and thus causing the failure. If there were a rash of similar failures we could say it's a design problem but since that's not the case (as far as I know) the arrow points away from Moto Guzzi. The mere fact that lawyer wants to take the case says more about the legal system than any possible merit for the claim. The torque for the pinch bolts is 10 NM (7.38 ft lb).
  8. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    This.
  9. pyoungbl

    pyoungbl Colonel Blood

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    I'm tired of waiting. You see, I decided to spring for a Russel Day Long seat for the Stelvio. Yes, the OEM seat is pretty darn good. I'd rate it for 300 miles. The Russel should get me to the 1K mark. I expect the new seat any day now, kinda like Christmas but without a known date. At least being seat-less for a couple weeks has made it super easy to do other maintenance on the bike without any pressure to finish the job quickly. Nevertheless, I'm tired of waiting!
  10. KMC1

    KMC1 There is no spoon.

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    Fantastic design, eh? Over tighten a pinch bolt and your front wheel will break off mid-ride and fold your body into origami. Great. Does a torque wrench come in the tool kit, or does your warranty on your life expire if you have to put in a tube trail side without one?

    And the bike already weighs like 600lbs....I'd prefer guzzi make the forks out of sheet steel.
  11. pyoungbl

    pyoungbl Colonel Blood

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    I guess it's possible to make a bike that is totally beyond what one could do to screw it up, then you could bitch about the weight or the fact that the factory service manual was not included as part of the ECU. Let's call a spade a spade: someone grossly overtorqued the pinch bolts and caused this wreck. They must have gone well beyond what is reasonable since none of the other NTX's have had this problem. I never said 'fantastic design' but since it's the same design that is used on hundreds of other bikes it must not be too shabby. If you are putting a tube in your NTX tire, while on the side of the road, you are doing something wrong .... it's a tubeless tire. As for the 600 pounds, nope, the NTX comes in at about 616 and that's almost exactly what the benchmark GSA weighs with similar equipment. As for the torque wrench comment, common sense should be part of ownership of a motorcycle. This sport has its own inherent dangers. If you screw up the machinery there could be life threatening consequences. This is a good example of those consequences. Maybe you and your buddy need to reconsider your choice of sports, croquet might be a better choice.
  12. X1Glider

    X1Glider Been here awhile

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    Ah, typical forum bullshit.. Large groups of people in one place filling in blanks about what they think they know about an individual based on absolutely no information whatsoever. Even worse when they tend to be brand loyal because that makes them blind. Not a single one of you knows a thing about my integrity nor my qualifications and achievements yet I am full of shit. Well, there's actually a few here who know me. Also, some of you have made up your own facts about the circumstances involved. Hate to tell you that you are wrong in your assumptions, but you are.

    But like I said, typical forum bullshit for certain people who apparently think that if you have more posts than another person on a forum you are somehow more qualified to give an opinion on certain things and have more credibility. Members with 5000 posts might be considered to be knowledgeable on a given subject. Members with 10000+ posts may be experts. Hmmm, the more posts, the more you know.

    Yes, I did get my tires changed at the Toy Box in St. Johns. Yes, they sell BMWs. Oh, the horror!!! Someone heard right. But did you also hear that I pulled the torque specs out of the service manual for the guys to go by? Probably not. Yes, the service manual was on my laptop the whole trip so that even a non-Guzzi shop could help out on the road if needed. It's not rocket science, installing a wheel. Holy shit, they even put the tire on in the correct direction!!! Who'd have thunk someone who works on BMWs could do such a thing.:lol3

    Did I ride the bike like a dirt bike and abuse it? Nah. I rode it like I would a GS, Super Ten, Tiger Exp or even a Multi. Dirt and gravel roads shouldn't be a big deal. Done that on HDs, Buells, Kawasaki race reps even. Did I not maintain it? It was a 2 month old bike. MPH did the first service. I did an oil change in N. Sydney, NS the afternoon before boarding the ferry. Simple stuff. Did you also know I had to tighten up the whole rear of the bike when I bought it? It turns out the rear subframe, upper shock mount and side luggage mounts were loosely assembled during the build but not fully tightened. Figured that one out the first ride. Downloaded the service manual and set to work torqueing everything to spec. No more floppy rear end.

    People that know me, know that I'm not just a mechanical engineer of 20 years but one that started his own motorcycle performance part business and did well for 3 years until I got tired of not sleeping. All stemming from wanting parts for my race bikes that no one else made. I wasn't doing it for the money from the start and had no intention of doing something bigger than for my own personal needs. But I did build stuff for lots of people over the 3 years. They also know I was pretty successful at land speed racing, ok at road racing and less so at enduros due to there being plenty of people much faster than me and building the bikes I rode for their purpose. Not to mention, in my spare time, I maintain and repair bikes for quite a lot of people I know. Saves them money, work is done right and the guys get to hang out doing what guys need to do away from the wives...let loose.

    Bikes aren't rocket science and you don't need 10000 posts on Advrider to be an expert on them. Internet searching and posting on forums is no substitute for real world experience.

    The Guzzi, ahem, IMO, is the most unrefined bike I've ever ridden and it simply wasn't up to the task of a dirt and gravel road. BTW, the pinch bolts were torqued to the proper spec. Also, the break was a clean fracture on the left side at the bottom where the dropout and lower stanchion tube cylindrical feature fillet together and some tearing then deformation on the right side as a result of having to bear the load. Simply put, the part had a fatal flaw.

    As for the luggage, they bounced off the buttons. The only thing holding them on is the locking mechanism. Unfortunately, you can rip them off with with your hands even locked on. The top case came off with the mounting plate. Can't stand those crappy finger plates that clamp around the square tubing back there. Poor design.

    They could've done a better job. Don't give me that crap about Piaggio owning them meaning something. It means nothing. Guzzi does their own thing design wise. Beinig under the Piaggio umbrella doesn't automatically mean Guzzi is privy to all technology developed by Piaggio or Aprilia. The only thing it means is that Piaggio wants to streamline Guzzi operations to make them efficient, profitable and opens up the supplier chain and global market place for growth potential. They still have to design their own products.

    To the brand loyalists: Get out and actually put some miles on something other than a Guzzi and you'll see just how unrefined they are. I tried it. I've been on better. Even 20 years ago.
  13. X1Glider

    X1Glider Been here awhile

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    Did you know the difference between Guzzi and BMW specs is only 0.6 lbs-ft? My professional engineering opinion is that if an extra 0.5 lbs-ft over ideal specification is all it takes to break something, the factor of safety is grossly underrated.

    I'm also guessing you've never heard of a single person putting a tube inside a tire on a tubeless wheel before. A punctured carcass with a hole too large to patch is a good example of needing a tube to get you home. Lots of people have been doing this for years when necessary.

    Torque wrench... why make the assumption torque wrenches aren't being used? Do you have factual evidence that one wasn't used? I guarantee you don't. I was hanging out with the guys doing the work and saw everything. They used one and they used the Guzzi specs from the service manual.

    I guess you have no equal when it comes to all things mechanical. How dare anyone other than you attempt to do something and even think they can do it properly.:eek1 God forbid someone who works on BMWs attempt to work on a Guzzi. If it was a Yamaha tech, I'd hate to think what might have happened the minute the bike left the parking lot.:lol3
  14. X1Glider

    X1Glider Been here awhile

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    .....
  15. James Adams

    James Adams non impediti ratione cogitationis

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    :tough

    :dhorse


    (I'm not going to pick apart all this BS; move on already.)
  16. rocker59

    rocker59 diplomatico di moto

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    You know, this right here shows you don't know much about the current crop of Guzzis.

    All design is going on at Pontedera, the Piaggio facility. Piaggio has removed all R&D from Mandello del Lario, though production remains there.

    Guzzi is a wholly-owned "brand" of Piaggio. It's not been a stand-alone company for several years, now.
  17. rocker59

    rocker59 diplomatico di moto

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    Guzzi doesn't make the forks. Marzocchi does.

    I have heard of a couple of failures on the earlier 50mm Marzocchi units. The failure is attributed to over-torquing. In one particular instance, PGA sent a replacement part.

    X1Glider is the first I've heard of a failure on the 50mm unit. The fact that it happened after a dealership replaced a tire surely points to overtorquing, despite the claim that they had a manual for reference. We have no idea what kind of wrench was used, and if it was calibrated, and if it was even truly used.
  18. Sock Monkey

    Sock Monkey 99% bullshitter...the other 1% is just lies

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    -sm
  19. Mr. Canoehead

    Mr. Canoehead Taste Gunnels!

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    X1Glider - sorry to hear of your crash. It certainly sounds like you did everything right and your analysis of the accident seems reasonable and thorough. Unfortunately, any manufactured part is potentially subject to flaws that might get missed in the QA process. It sounds like you had a perfect storm of failures on your bike.

    A forensic engineer should be able to figure out the sequence of the failure. You doing the legwork to figure out what went wrong can only help everyone here. No one wants one of our inmates here to get hurt or killed by a similar failure. Please ignore the kool-aid drinkers and keep us informed of your findings. Maybe you should start a new thread about your accident. If nothing else, it will bring it to the attention of Piaggio and Marzocchi.

    I really like the NTX, and would like to hear that it is durable. The reality is that bikes are being built less and less solidly as the manufacturers try to keep the weight down. I rented a Tiger XC a couple of months ago and was shocked by the crap panniers. They would be fine on a road bike but were totally unsuitable for off road use.

    The 1150 GSA is a tank - sometimes that's a good thing, but sometimes not. I love mine but it is a lot of work chasing my friend's MS1200 on a twisty road.



    Sent from my Droid Tablet using Tapatalk
  20. Precis

    Precis Maladroit malcontent

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    Long-time multiple Guzzi owner (and former employee) here; I also have a couple of Caponords (Aprilia - now just another Piaggio 'brand') - which have the fat-ass Marzocchi forks - not sure if they're the same spec as those on the Stelvio.
    I snapped an axle-pinch bolt by making a (small) mistake in calibrating my torque wrench - should have trusted my uncalibrated right arm. The bolt broke - not the fork-leg.
    However, as far back as the early 1980s, Guzzi had a poor rep for snapping the axle-pinch section of the fork leg/slider if the bolts were over-tightened. Affected models were the Le Mans 2 (Yanks would call it a CX100), LM3, SP, SPNT, 850T4, Convert, G5, etc.
    I reckon we replaced dozens without the customer ever even knowing, plus a few others where the customer did know.
    Don't think we ever lost anyone in a crash, but it was an internally well-known issue, one we were keen to keep quiet. Interesting that the problem hasn't gone away.
    Having had at least one Guzzi in the house every single day since 1977 (right now, we're down to 4), would I buy a Stelvio? No - because it's not different enough to what I already have, to justify spending upwards of $10,000 more, just to get a new badge on the tank. But then I won't be buying the sad 1200 Caponord either - just another sit-up-and-beg image-bike for old people, like the Mono-Strada.
    Would I buy another GS? No - I refuse to pay money to act as BMW's Product Development dept and can no longer afford and am unwilling to pay their parts-prices - not when better, more affordable machines are offered by other manufacturers, such as Triumph and Yamaha.
    However, if Guzzi built a 650 - 750cc V-twin shaft-driven ADV bike with a 21" front wheel and a 32 litre tank, we'd have two ... Ooops, they already did: 25 years ago, the NTX models: too bad they don't make them now!