Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX: 2017 & Beyond

Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by Hoak, Sep 3, 2016.

  1. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    I wouldn't be surprised. BMW was very hush hush over it after it happened and it was hard to get an actual account of it. I thought I did hear at the time there was a consideration of a law suit though.
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  2. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    "feature float" :lol3 That is priceless. I'll have to remember that one.

    Two things for me. I like having the heads out there for ease of maintenance. I really like the engine characteristics of an opposed twin. I like the delivery of torque from the Guzzi motor and I imagine the BMW is similar. I wish they offered it in a stripped down version without all the bells and whistles. It would be more attractive to me that way.
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  3. gbtw

    gbtw Been here awhile

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    Maybe by that time someone will have a almost turn key solution like this for the 1150 :) https://berrt.nl/motoren/bmw-r-1150-enduro/

    That would be sweet, but i don't its worth it for them unless you do it like BMW. Adding junk to bike generates income, by larger amount than said junk is worth. Then later on you can sell the bike without said junk for more as a scrambler.
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  4. Lupin 3rd

    Lupin 3rd Raygun Gothic

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    Honestly the more gadgets I see on the high end bikes, the more I want to move down to mid-sized twins and triples. Which, BTW, now have more than enough power to cruise on the interstate all day long.

    [​IMG]
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  5. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    Sort of an abbreviated version of 'parade float of features' -- I use that a lot when it's something that offers dubious or no benefit and breaks expensively.

    Couldn't agree more about the Moto Guzzi 8V, with the wasser boxer however -- your in for some disappointment..

    It's not similar; obviously not a v engine, not the same fire pattern, and while nicely torquey down low, it does not offer the kid of kinematic feed-back a Moto Guzzi does, that from your acquisition list you seem to enjoy at least as much as I do -- the boxer it's more like driving a car.

    The closest you'll come to a Moto Guzzi is a transverse v engine -- of which few offer shaft drive, or a parallel twin with a 270° fire pattern like the Super Ténéré.

    They did, the HP2, some are hoping the R9T signals a future move in that direction. But neither of these, or any BMW boxer for that matter have the kinematics of a Moto Guzzi.

    Dittos! I hope some Italians are paying attention!

    Now that would be a bike I could get excited about. Though no where near as much as if Moto Guzzi were to take the same approach!
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  6. XT Traveler

    XT Traveler Been here awhile

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    I still prefer a twin over a multi -- water cooled or not. I have three air cooled twins and two water cooled twins. They all are still less complex than their multi-cylinder counterparts and have more character. Vertical, Opposed, or V and a 270, 360 or 180 firing order I still like them better -- but then I'm old :gerg
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  7. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    I agree! Parts count, complexity and maintenance requirements soar in excess and you become more of a mechanic than a rider in my experience with anything over two. And then there's the, I can't think of any other word that's apt but 'kinematics' of a twin with any layout that (for me) just feels more connected with what's going on; though so far the 8V has left the strongest impression on me. I like singles too for some of the same reasons, and prefer them all air-cooled.

    I don't think there's anything wrong about liking more complex machinery, I just don't have the time or energy for more, can enjoy the fancy stuff better vicariously (especially when it breaks) and get more out of simpler machinery that I can take better care of with my limited time for that and remaining on the planet...
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  8. Mooney 78865

    Mooney 78865 Been here awhile

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    Can we do one direction on the pavement, the other on dirt? I like coffee and Danish!
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  9. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    It would be cool if there was a big bike ADV Rally in the spirit of what some Rally & Enduro events used to be like: more casual, less formal, a friendly distance semi-competitive events, on box stock or nearly so bikes you rode to the event. Depending on how it was setup run you'd have the fiercely competitive guys out in front, the guys out just for a fun adventurous ride picking up the rear (and picking up the downed bikes, riders and parts depending on rules) and everyone else in-between.

    Of course this got more and more formalized as the AMA and FIM became better known, and marketing and sponsorship grew to the epic scale it is today -- and now it's seamless sea of RedBullshit marketing for orange colored drinks and bikes.

    But I think it would be fun to have something more retro/casual competitive; it would be fun to see how bikes hold up and riders (that seem to want to) prove, and fun for those that weren't out to prove anything. It also might put a lot more pressure on manufacturers when their machines got a reputation as 'Fail Floats' in the International Fun Days Rally that were always falling apart, while the 'sleeper' bikes that were the were painlessly taking their riders all the way...
  10. Dr AT

    Dr AT Long timer

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    The oz version of this is the off centre rally - (it's not an organised event , so if you want to sue someone good luck..) the non organisers don't actually organise anything, but somehow the oz adv community agrees on a destination that's at least a couple of hundred km away from the nearest bitumen road, but has fuel and booze, or at least can get in fuel and booze via a miracle of non organisation. An unidentified number of people converge on this unorganised destination from all over the country - ideally from the opposite side of the country if they happen to live nearby .... half the fun is finding the weirdest route (pretty sure that's the right spelling if my wife is asking)

    They collect $ for the flying doctor but to be honest, it's a revenue negative experience for the flying doctor.......great for BMW spares and fantastic for tyre manufacturers.....
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  11. Lee R

    Lee R Shelter Monkey

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    I've got a few thousand miles on the water boxer and it's strait up boring compared to the 8v. It's faster. It's proficient. If I'm doing boring it's going to be Japanese and smooth like an FJR 1300.

    The Honda Africa Twin had a good engine and good character and exhaust sound. Other than wonky handling in tight twistys when really going for it, I had no complaints. I'd pick that over a GS every time. It'll smoke the GS off-road.
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  12. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    I agree, and I don't mind boring if it's the price of entry to something more that I truly value like: a more reliable motorcycle, easier to work on, more capable...

    The Africa Twin is nice, but I'd rather have a Super Ténéré under me in just about any real world scenario; they're both 270° parallel twins (which is my favorite 'other' engine plan) and sound and feel very similar, the Super Ténéré is only marginally heavier and similarly setup it's barely heavier, is if anecdotal reports are any indication a much more robust bike and easier to work on, and is a much more mature design with all the early version issues nicely resolved and is from my owning one and riding the other experience a more versatile motorcycle. As far as smoking other riders; I'll never be in a mechanics or spending race -- or the 'who has the better bike' competition with anyone.
  13. Lee R

    Lee R Shelter Monkey

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    There is enjoyment in an engine that just gets the job done and it's bulletproof if you'd rather be riding then wrenching.


    I don't know about the Tenere being similar to the AT. The Tens surely better touring on the open road, probably better seat too. You're looking at a 60-70 pound lighter bike though, it feels a hell of a lot lighter than the Stelvio off-road. Both are heavy pigs on trails but the AT really is a much better dirt bike. When I refer to "smoking" I mean capability for dirt, it IS that much better off highway. The AT is very much like the 990 KTM. Quite a lot of suspension travel on it too, 10" if I remember right (nope, 9") It's a betterbike if your leaning that direction, as a s1000xr would be if you were leaning pavement. The S10 and Stelvio kinda split that difference.

    Fuel range is meh on the AT though, the Ten is much better there and shaft drive is awesome. Add tubeless tire as a plus, I just don't like tubes.

    I have a feeling the 700 Tenere is going to be 25-30 lbs less and much more affordable, but like a cheaper AT instead of the concept bike.
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  14. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    Yes, this reminds me of a something someone said in a thread about exactly this subject: 'Anyone that finds any motorcycle boring, isn't doing it right.' -- I'd probably add there's some kind of price:excitement ratio most are looking for and when they find that not satisfied regard certain bikes as 'boring'.

    They are both over-square, 270° parallel twins -- with similar power/torque performance, and power:engine weight.

    Again this is going to depend on who's riding what and how the bike's are setup: fuel them equally, put them at accessory parity and the weight difference gets cut in half.

    I agree and understand what you're saying, the extra inch of suspension travel is nice; but in practice both bikes are too heavy to be ridden dirt bike hard by anyone but a very skilled rider; even there the CRF wallows, shows it's weight, will beat you up and wear you out just as fast as the XTZ, neither are a lot of fun ridden hard.

    If you look at video of skilled riders going fast on both bikes, like some fast Australians that really trounce the shit out of both bikes the XTZ remains as, or more poised pushed really hard as the CRF -- and the CRF has proven to be a bit fragile for that kind of riding. For riders of intermediate skill, with realistic intentions for a heavy bike; it's a wash and down to which bike fits you better. I stand fast that the XTZ will do more and probably end up costing most a lot less.

    If the T7 costs less then the CRF it will probably weigh just as much. I was closest to the pin in guessing the AT's weight (am pretty good arm chair Engineer :D). Cost constrained, with a beefed-up for ADV and road legal cradle frame, longer travel suspension components, rally bike furniture, and a power plant that weighs the same as the CRF's -- the laws of physics and economics are going to prevail and disappoint a lot of people that think they're going to get a 'light' bike with ¾ liter twin, from what Yamaha is showing of the T7.

    The expectations of would be fans of this bike and what they want it to be able to accomplish spec and price wise are in magic unicorn lala land.
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  15. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    I should probably add, and redirect things to the OT: I'd be the happiest person in the thread, and the T7 threads to be wrong; I like Yamaha motorcycles (own one), love 270° parallel twins (though not as much as the long-v), and if Yamaha (or any other mfg for that matter) could deliver a road legal, dirt worthy, true middle-weight bike -- I'd be thrilled.

    But meeting E4 and DOT regulation, creating a one size fits all (or even just one size fits many), a reasonable price target that a large audience can afford, and make it light, and dirt/ADV worthy is a hard target to hit -- for any motorcycle manufacturer, and if cost is a constraint, weight will be the price.

    I read a lot of posts were people are hung up on spec sheet numbers; specifically weight and power, and I'd bet most of these people would have their expectations better met if they were looking more to power:weight, or even better torque/rpm: weight as far as specifications, but would be even better if they were looking at empirical performance (described below)

    A truly 90:10 dirt worthy bike where the 90 is going to be off road, obviously weight is critical, but it seems fairly ridiculous to imagine any contemporary, mass produced, road legal twin, is going to perform like an 80lb lighter single that can have less compromised suspension -- even where they're the same displacement and the single has less power.

    I think what ADV fans are really looking for in a middle weight bike -- once they get past marketing induced fantasy that they're going to be able to ride it like they're in a sanctioned Rally, or have the specs of a sport bike -- is a bike that delivers on empirical performance with these criteria:

    · a bike they can drop and easily get up single handed
    · can drop without it costing them a fortune or ending the ride
    · can accelerate them to highway speeds faster than most cars
    · can cruise at highway speeds economically with the engine loafing
    · have enough grunt to pass cars efficaciously at highway speed
    · a WR transmission that obviates excessive clutch abuse at low speed & allows for the above
    · long legs range via economy and fuel capacity
    · beefy long travel suspension that is free of flex
    · decent manners off-road when ridden near the limit of the suspension
    · maintenance ease and autonomy
    · capable weather, cargo, and passenger furniture (perhaps as options)

    This translates to a bike that doesn't need to meet specific weight or power targets, it means emphasis on low center of gravity, lots of torque low on the rev counter, a wide ratio transmission that offers truly useful ratios from a crawl to super-cruise, an engine that can be serviced by the owner with tools on the bike, decent economy and fuel capacity, crash and drop survivability, and beefy long travel suspension.

    Interestingly a lot of the desirable and nice to have ADV 'bells-&-whistles' fit right in with a Moto Guzzi, like: shaft drive, low CG, an engine that offers up enormous torque low in the rev range, and maintenance autonomy. But beefy long travel suspension and wide ratio transmissions remain to be seen -- but it wouldn't take much to get there...
  16. bross

    bross Where we riding to?

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    You've pretty much described a Suzuki DR650. Sure out of the box it needs a few things improved but with the cost of a DR you really don't mind spending the money for a decent suspension upgrade and a new seat. After that it's pretty much just ergonomics and some crash protection. The DR will sit comfortably at highway speeds, with stock gearing I don't even shift to 5th till I'm doing 55-60. For tight technical terrain it could use a lower 1st gear but lots of riders simply swap the front sprocket when they get to the trails after a highway slog, takes all of 10 minutes. For a thumper the DR is amazingly smooth. Doesn't get much simpler than a DR and anyone with basic tools can fix or keep one running. Carbs get hated on in this day and age, but a well sorted carb runs as well or better than a lot of FI systems and the stock BST does a pretty good job of compensating for elevation, no need to rejet just to ride through Colorado. Range is whatever you want it to be with many aftermarket tanks available. Some of the best aftermarket support available for a bike, except maybe for BMW.

    It may be a 20 year old bike but it just works and basically ticks off all your boxes.
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  17. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    Yes, it's a great bike! As was the Honda XR/XL 600/650 -- but we're proselytizing Moto Guzzi here! I love air cooled singles for their simplicity; they usually come with screw adjusted tappets, most everything is easy to get to, and while some may regard a carburetor as the bane of 'modern everything', the fact is you can adjust, maintain, and rebuild it yourself offering another level of maintenance autonomy.

    What the DR650 lacks is long legs comfort in the way of wind protection and a sixth gear that lets you super-cruse at more sedate engine speed. Granted it's five-speed transmission is wider ratio then what's showing up on a lot of more powerful bikes that would benefit more from this approach, and you can easily change your final driver ratio -- still,a sixth cog would really nice. As well I think a lot of riders, especially fans of twins and Moto Guzzi would find most singles too light, and a little under powered as they're more effected by wind and turbulence, and keeping up with fast traffic is a bit more work.

    If I buy another single, just based on what's available now I'd probably buy the AJP PR7, even though it's initially more expensive, and hasn't had a two decades to shake out -- it does look like a bike that can do more for about the same net investment. I'd never rule the DR out though. But I'm really hoping Moto Guzzi pulls another pleasant surprise out of their hat!
  18. XT Traveler

    XT Traveler Been here awhile

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    Funny I was thinking it was close to describing my 1994 Yamaha XT600E. The XT had a really low first gear and a dual carb system that ran off a really small bore carb and low RPMs providing excellent low speed fueling so you could just really putt through the real technical stuff it then transitioned via mechanical linkage to bring in the larger carb and it had a high enough top gear and power that you could cruise at 70-75 mph all day. I upgraded the suspension and added a 5.3 gallon fuel tank and a Corbin seat. The valve adjustment was screw type and it took less than1/2 hour to adjust the valves with just a couble of wrenches and a screwdriver. I rode it to Alaska, the eastern part of the TAT, a bunch of the trails in MOAB, as well as trailriding/dual sporting in Oh, Ky, Tn and WV. When I thought I was done with that type of riding (I was wrong) I sold it to a guy who rode it to Ecuador. I later replaced it with an 09 KLR which was heavier, more complex, no better on road and not near as good off road. Only kept it for a year. I was hopeful the Husky TR650 Terra might be a replacement but then it was here and gone -- I still consider picking up a used one. I have an 800 GS which is fine on fire roads, many dual and single track but when it gets more technical it is just geared too high and of course it's heavier too. I have a DRZ400 for the more rugged stuff and it doe OK on the roads if you are going across the country but even so it could really use a 6th gear. Net, my XT was about 75% as good on road as my GS and about 75% as good off road as my DRZ for me that was an OK place to be.
  19. Dr AT

    Dr AT Long timer

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    The DR/XT/KLR KTM light adv bike discussion ends the first time you ride an ajp pr7 , the only conversation left is do I keep the stelvio when I buy an ajp , or will a stelvio replacement be available by the time the ajp wears out ?
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  20. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    By the time the AJP wears out? You mean an E7 compliant hybrid that weighs 720 lbs, has steer by wire, balances itself, has 'No User Serviceable Parts' warning stickers all over it with the threat of felony crime for opening or removing any part of the motorcycle, and traffic moderated intervention?

    Call it far-fetched it's what the legislators in Belgium want, and are constantly working on to the tune of billions of pages of legislation a year; while you and I have healthier, happier pursuits. Keep your Stelvio, it's the last of it's kind -- once known as: 'a motorcycle'...
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