Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by _cy_, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    glazed eyeball alert ... from recent research

    translated: as temperature goes down your LiFePO4 battery's internal resistance goes up, reducing amount of amps available to start your engine.

    -----------
    LiFePO4battery performances testing and analyzing for BMS

    Dr. Languang Lu, Department of Automotive Engineering,
    Tsinghua University, ECG (Engine Control Group) Aug.2011
    ----------
    The maximum ability discharge current (SOF)
    ① The ability discharge current (the lowest voltage is 2.5V per cell) is strongly connected with temperature. The lower temperature, the lower ability to discharge current because of high resistance under low temperature. The ability current at -20℃ is about 20% of that at room temperature.

    ② the SOF also concern with SOC, the lower SOC, the lower SOF because of the high resistance. The ability discharge current at 10%SOC is about 40% of that at 90%SOC

    [​IMG]
  2. TheMuffinMan

    TheMuffinMan Forest Ranger Magnet

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,580
    Location:
    Denver, USA
    The cold starting problems with the Lithium Phosphate batteries will keep me away from them. To me the weight savings is not worth the trouble of trying and possibly not being able to start the bike after a cold night of camping in the mountains.

    Normally I'm all about technology, but this still needs more development before I'd ever buy one. If I lived in Phoenix or Tucson I'd have one in a heartbeat though.
  3. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    properly sized LiFePO4 batteries combined with correct cold starting procedure makes cold starts without issue.

    is it for everyone? not by a long shot, but for some folks those are among the cheapest pounds to shed. compared to what some folks spend to save a few oz on carbon fiber parts...

    that's why for most folks my recommendation is go with AGM. unless those 10lb or so saved are worth the $$$ and relearning cold start procedures.

    again... properly size LiFePO4 batteries combined with correct cold start procedures have proven themselves to be rugged and dependable.
  4. tfdodoadv

    tfdodoadv n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Oddometer:
    1
  5. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    glazed eyeball alert ...

    translated: temperature to amp hour relationship remains at 90% down to 0 C (32f)
    but then drops rapidly to about 75% at -10C (-14f)

    most folks don't ride below 32f, but some Adv riders do.
    Adv bikes have some of the most demanding starting requirements.

    -----------
    LiFePO4battery performances testing and analyzing for BMS

    The relationship between battery capacity and temperature
    The lower temperature the less available capacity, but when the temperature is
    more than 15 °C, the available capacity is essentially the same. At 15°C the
    available capacity is 98% of that at 25°C. The capacity remain 90% at 0°C. The
    capacity remain 74.5% (cut off voltage 2.5V) and 87% (cut off voltage 2.0V) at -
    10°C . The capacity remain 56% (cut off voltage 2.5V) and 72% (cut off voltage
    2.0V) at -20°C .

    Analyzing:The lower temperature, the higher resistance of the battery (reference
    to the slide in resistance analyzing ) , so that in the same cut off voltage, the lower
    available capacity.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  6. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    China's Wanxiang wins auction for U.S. government-backed A123

    China's largest maker of auto parts won a politically sensitive auction for A123 Systems Inc , a bankrupt maker of batteries for electric cars that was funded partly with U.S. government money, A123's investment banker said on Saturday.

    Timothy Pohl of Lazard Freres said Wanxiang Group Corp's bid of about $260 million topped a joint bid from Johnson Controls Inc of Milwaukee and Japan's NEC Corp for the maker of lithium-ion batteries.

    Siemens AG of Germany had also qualified to bid, according to two people familiar with the auction, who asked not to be identified. The auction began on Thursday.

    Chinese companies have launched $51.3 billion worth of outbound deals this year, making it Asia's second-biggest spender on overseas acquisitions behind Japan, according to Thomson Reuters data.

    While state-owned oil giants continue to dominate outbound deals, recently Chinese companies have targeted deals aimed at securing technology know-how. That shift is supported by China's five-year development plan that puts emphasis on industries such as high-end manufacturing equipment.

    Earlier this year, Shandong Heavy Industry Group agreed to buy a quarter stake in Germany's Kion Group , giving China access to industrial technology from the world's number two fork lift truck maker.

    Before that, Xuzhou Construction Machinery Group agreed to buy a majority stake in privately held German machinery manufacturer Schwing, while Sany Heavy Industry bought rival Putzmeister in a 360 million euro ($472 million) deal.

    Wanxiang, one of the largest non-government-owned companies in China, has annual revenue of more than $13 billion and supplies auto parts to many of China's largest automakers.

    POLITICAL BACKLASH

    News of Wanxiang's winning bid comes only a day after the Canadian government approved a controversial deal allowing China's state-owned oil company CNOOC to buy energy company Nexen Inc for $15.1 billion.

    Wanxiang's approach for A123 had stirred a political storm and one U.S. politician was quick to warn about A123 and its sensitive, U.S. taxpayer-financed technology falling into the hands of a Chinese company.

    "Given the thin line between Wanxiang and the Chinese government, I am concerned about the government of China having access to sensitive technologies being used by our military forces," said a statement from Congressman Bill Huizenga, a Republican from Michigan where A123 has plants.

    The sale did not include parts of A123's business that works with the U.S. Defense Department, a source close to the deal said. That portion of the company went to another bidder, which the source did not identify.

    The sale must be approved by Delaware Bankruptcy Court judge Kevin Carey at a hearing scheduled for Tuesday.

    Opposition to the deal will likely focus on the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, which would need to approve the sale to Wanxiang.

    U.S. politicians and retired military leaders have already pressed the government panel to reject Wanxiang.

    Separately, the U.S. government has also said it must give its consent before its $249 million grant to A123 can be transferred to a new owner. The battery maker can still draw $120 million under various government grants, according to court records.

    It was unclear if the grant would be transferred to Wanxiang.

    A123, whose customers include Fisker Automotive, General Motors Co , BMW and the U.S. military, received the U.S. government grant as part of a program to promote clean energy.

    Wanxiang has had its eyes on A123 for a while. The Chinese company struck a $465 million investment deal meant to save A123 from bankruptcy earlier this year. That agreement fell apart after A123 failed to meet certain criteria, according to court documents.

    The Chinese company is no stranger to investing in the United States.

    Wanxiang generates about $1 billion in revenue in the United States by supplying parts to GM and Ford Motor Co and has bought or invested in more than 20 U.S. companies, many of them in bankruptcy, said a congressional report.

    Those past investments could help Wanxiang get approval to buy A123, but the deal will be closely scrutinized because it involves advanced technology, said Andrew Szamosszegi, who wrote the report for the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission.

    A123 filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in October.

    The money from the auction will go toward paying off A123's creditors. The company listed liabilities of $376 million when it filed for bankruptcy.
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/class...tcy-wanxiangbre8b801e-20121208,0,715651.story
  7. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Oddometer:
    3,843
    Location:
    Canada & the Alps - N 46° 31.714' E 010° 27.212'
    Wow, 18 pages of battery talk.

    This ain't rocket science. All you need is a good vehicle charging system and if not a daily driver, a good battery charger, both which can be easily verified. Note, don't believe manufacturer's claims. I've done enough testing in the lab to know the majority of the claims are pure BS.

    Best battery for vehicle use taking cost into account? Well I am seeing 16 years+ out of a plain old flooded lead acid battery that has to tolerate sub zero demands. That is tough to beat and to boot, that type of battery is far less sensitive to charging methods. I don't waste my time with AGM, GEL, etc simply because vehicles don't need what they have to offer. End of story!
  8. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Oddometer:
    3,843
    Location:
    Canada & the Alps - N 46° 31.714' E 010° 27.212'
    That explains why I'm not getting calls from them regarding 6T batteries.

    Government grants? Don't get me going. How to pi$$ away a bunch of money into the pockets of a few using my tax dollars.
  9. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    wet lead/acid had it's time ... for motorcycle batteries cost for AGM has come down very close to wet.

    AGM for Adv bikes has the advantage of not spilling when your bike does go down. don't know of very many folks who has not dropped their adv bike at some point. that is if one goes off road any at all.

    another huge advantage is very low self discharge. NO battery tender is needed providing you don't have parasitic drain. vs wet PB self discharges at a substantial rate. let any battery go down too far it may not come back up. this goes double for lead acid, which sulfates pretty quick.

    apologies for the rant .. as this is suppose to be a technical thread...

    what a total crock of shit! technologies paid by US tax payer $$$ is falling into hands of other countries. not to mention another 120+ million US tax payer dollars in funding already approved.

    sure hope this deal gets blocked!
  10. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Oddometer:
    3,843
    Location:
    Canada & the Alps - N 46° 31.714' E 010° 27.212'
    Still too finicky with respect to charging. FLAs can take more abuse and we all know how abused batteries are.


    Catch bottle with cotton.


    But the problem is you do have drain. The advantage of the insignificant self discharge in a VRLA battery is insignificant compared to what the standby drain is in all vehicles. You have to disconnect the battery or use a maintainer. Not a "plus" unless you plan to store the battery on a shelf.


    Rant on. Somebody will get paid off and the deal will go through. If you think corruption only exists outside of North America, you're dreaming.
  11. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    come on ... welcome to 2012 .. AGM is hands down better than wet lead acid!!! where is this harder to charge AGM stuff coming from?

    granted if AGM goes completely dead, waking AGM up takes big honking amps. but batteries of all types when drained completely dead will pretty much kill it.

    one of the biggest disadvantage of wet PB is high self discharge... bikes by their nature gets ridden from daily to every other month or once a season.

    if one is committed to maintaining wet PB, then fine it will last a long long time. but most folks including me are lazy. they forget to put on battery tender. in short order wet PB are sulfated to point of non-recovery. I'd say most battery replacements are from going dead due to non-use vs wearing it out from too many cycles.

    some modern bike have relatively high parasitic. those need tenders no matter what.
  12. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Oddometer:
    3,843
    Location:
    Canada & the Alps - N 46° 31.714' E 010° 27.212'
    Do you think AGM, FLA, GEL all charge to the same end voltage? The vehicle charging system has to me matched to the battery and temperature compensated. And most important of all, VRLA batteries should never be overcharged which is why most of them lead a short/shorter life. You can overcharge a FLA...just add water. :D

    Do you want to see pics of piles of very dead and expensive 6T military AGM batteries?

    Each has their advantages. I'll stick to my FLA. Why change if its in its 14th year and still cranking as always. :wink:

    Bud, I'm not interested in starting page 20 of more of the same (imagine...20 pages of battery tech), nor do I have any bias (I don't sell batteries) towards any particular type.
  13. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    where do see I think GM, FLA, GEL all charge to same end voltage? that's why I don't recommend gel cell batteries which do require a charger with slightly lower voltages. overcharging a gel could permanently damage it. AGM is really still a lead acid battery.

    yes Gel and AGM can be killed by extended overcharging. hence why I don't recommend battery tenders for AGM, unless it's a model designed for AGM with current cutoff feature. then again one can kill LiFePO4 and Lithium cobalt and wet PB by extended overcharging too.

    a normal charging system range from 13.8 to 14.2v, which can safely charge Gel, AGM and LiFePO4. but not lithium cobalt which does match 12v charging systems. not even getting into dangers of not stopping charge at set voltage. by the way, BMW still recommends Gel batteries depending on which model.

    nothing above is new and is well understood ... hurts my head going backward digging all this back up :rofl
    now back to our scheduled breakdown for Earth-X LiFePO4 batteries.

    initial charge for Earth-X battery... max charge rate set for 5amp... battery is swallowing 2.7amp.. note lack of balance ports. Earth-X internal BMS will balance cells, making balance ports not necessary.
    [​IMG]

    Powerlab8 finished charge at 14.4v ... volts is dropping, seeking resting volts. we'll see where battery voltage ends up at.
    full charge/discharge/charge to determine actual amp hour capacity with a regenerative discharge/charge cycle with Powerlab8 soon.
    [​IMG]
  14. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Oddometer:
    3,843
    Location:
    Canada & the Alps - N 46° 31.714' E 010° 27.212'
    They do make good paper weights though. Thorough testing of a few chargers in the lab to see if they meet battery manufacturer's recommendations only came up with one, the Xantrex TrueCharge2. Not cheap, but damn good.

    I'm amazed at the claims of charger manufacturers.
  15. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    Earth-X ETX24C resting voltage overnight at 13.87v

    [​IMG]
  16. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    UPDATE 1-US says will not give battery maker A123 rest of grant

    The U.S. Energy Department will not give battery maker A123 the remaining half of its $249 million grant, following the company's high profile bankruptcy and acquisition by a Chinese auto parts supplier, a department official said on Monday.

    China's Wanxiang Group won an auction for most of the assets of A123, which makes lithium ion batteries for electric cars.

    The department official, who asked not to be named because of the proceedings are ongoing, said this had been made clear to all parties involved in bidding for A123.~

    The company had received about $133 million of its $249 million grant when it filed for bankruptcy protection in October.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/10/a123-sale-grant-idUSL1E8NA4PZ20121210
  17. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    Why technical data on forums are among the most accurate anywhere on the WWW.

    from another thread worth repeating...
    ---------------------

    good point ... pic's or it didn't happen :D

    SS all BS aside, I don't mind anyone drilling into what ever I post. this is why IMHO, detailed technical data on forums are the most accurate available anywhere because it's Vetted!. anything that survives yours and others ruthless nit-picking ... odds are will be correct.

    there's detailed technical postings all over the WWW. But trouble is it's very hard to tell crap from truth. which gets back to why I've got such a high opinion on technical information posted on forums. it's vetted!!!! especially on high traffic forums like ADV with 287k members. anytime someone posts technical data. if there's any hint of a mistake. Someone will ruthlessly point it out!!! odds are usually there's several folks waiting to pounced on ANY mistakes no matter how small.

    this is why I'll go out of my way to post LOTS of clear pictures. to where there is NO doubt validity of what I've posted. not saying I've never made mistakes ... but very seldom will anything I post be fundamentally wrong.

    why do you think folks are constantly posting... Pic's or it didn't happen!!!

    (SS if need be I'll chase down as easy to use, digital camera to send you for free and/or help you get up to speed on posting pic's.)
  18. LexLeroy

    LexLeroy Chief Mansplainer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,809
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    Are you aware of any impact to either EarthX or Antigravity? It would appear to be a set-back if either or both are reduced to sourcing their cells from China.
  19. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    no clue, but note some of A123's existing plants are already in eastern countries.

    don't have a problem with lithium cells coming from China as there are only a tiny number of actual lithium battery mfg out there. most battery brands are private labels.

    what I've got a problem with is giving away our technologies paid for by US tax payer $$$.

    true story... back when li-ion (lithium cobalt) battery use was in it's infancy. (A123 was just getting started) I was part of the initial Candlepower forums groupbuy by JSBurley for what was the next breakthrough, paradigm shift for li-ion batteries.

    what I'm referring to is technoloy integrating a BMS internal to li-ion cell. the protected R123 li-ion cell. flasholics or flashlight nuts were tired of paying $$$ for CR123 used in high tech flashlights. we all wanted a rechargeable for primary lithium CR123 batteries.

    but back then it was all but impossible to purchase individual li-ion cells. battery mfg's correct fear of unstable lithium cobalt chemistry combined with lawyers = non-access of li-ion cells to general public. unless one could prove they were a legit OEM with ability to install a BMS in end battery packs, along with a specific to that pack li-ion charger.

    back then and now .. Candlepower forums was on the bleeding edge in for technologies related to flashlights.

    concept of integrating protection circuits or BMS into a R123 li-ion cell was hatched on CPF. JSBurely believed in the project so much that he hocked his house to fund the project.

    what happened next was JSBurey paid for initial tooling rampup to a Chinese mfg to make the world first protected li-ion cell. the protected R123.

    JSBurley was sweating bullets to deliver, as he had taken $$$ in groupbuy monies from folks on CPF.

    finally ... after many runs that didn't work... JSBurley delivered to groupbuy folks the world's first protected R123 battery.

    yes it worked... but just barely. amp hour capacity was probably about 100 milliamp hour or less. but it did work. so JSBurley still didn't have a commercial success on his hands.

    what happened next was the sad part... the Chinese battery mfg then took the technologies paid for by JSBurley and ran with it.

    the rest is history as consumer use of individual li-ion cells exploded (yes there were explosions) and became commonplace. since the Chinese don't always honor technical property rights. JSBurley got zip..nada ... nothing for his investments. He went broke and lost his house over it.

    this is why .. I'm so against the giveaway of A123's technologies which in a HUGE part was paid for by US taxpayers.
    for all we know technologies for the next paradigm shift for batteries is contained within A123's knowledge base. IMHO it's criminal to give that away to another country.

    like it or not battery technologies are strategic assets that could impact our country in ways not yet apparent. The Chinese recognize this and are willing to plow LOTS of $$$ chasing it. note the same buyer was ready to pay $460 million earlier, but A123 backed out. yet at auction they paid about 1/2 that... a true bargain for the successful bidder. We need to stop this giveaway!!!

    despite li-ion technologies originating from USA. America's markets share represented by A123 is a tiny 1%.
    Source: CGGC, based on(METI, 2010; NEDO, 2009)

    [​IMG]
  20. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    unpacking Earth-X ETX24C and ETX36D LiFePO4 battery...

    comes with lots of sticky backed Foam. slick battery terminal design allowing access from either direction.
    battery 13.67v as received or fully charged.

    [​IMG]

    ETX24C weight 2lb 5oz (scales checked w/lab standard)
    [​IMG]

    ETX36D next to ETX24C with terminals installed
    [​IMG]

    ETX36D weight 3lb 11oz
    [​IMG]