Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by _cy_, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. frogy

    frogy Been here awhile

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    Thanks for all the help cy. Will not ask about batterys left in freezer. My Grand mother still does it:D
    On another note cy , I notice you have to re hash what you have said many times over and over again... thats a lot of typing for you. How about writing down what page you said what on, then when someone asks the same question again you can guide them to it. Less typing and less chance of burn out.
    I'd hate to loose you on this thread.
  2. frogy

    frogy Been here awhile

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    Yep, bought the $129 model at a Rally last year and love it. All kinds of attachments. It charges my boys laptops on long rides to the East Coast, and I carry it with me to Rallys now.
  3. LocuL

    LocuL Gnarly Infantry

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    Hi CY_

    I´ll just throw some examples in here. My project bike will be 1190cc and ofcourse needs a fitting batteri option. I would like to go lifePo. Denmark/Scandinavia or just northeren Europe can be chilly at times and i won´t use the Lifepo option if it won´t do the job.
    We don´t get the Earth-X option which seems to be the trick.

    Can i use or make my own batteri from some of these? I of course respect if you don´t want to use the time on searching, but i´m lost in this World.
    http://www.ebay.de/sch/i-tecc/m.htm...h=item2588208fe8&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562
  4. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    thanks for noticing all the repeat typing that I do to support what ever question that comes my way.

    an excellent suggestion by the way .. have already adopted a similar tactic supporting BMW Airhead charging and a few other issues by posting a series of easy to follow tutorial with clear pictures. scroll down to post #898 http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169507&page=60

    unfortunately most support questions are not exactly the same .. for instance someone that's got charging issues specific to that bike .. first need to chase down charging problems before any battery will help.

    then factor all the different motorcycles out there .. then add all the different weather conditions all over the world .. the person that only rides in nice weather not ever far from support is going to have substantially different needs from someone riding to remote location far from any support including nasty conditions, etc.

    started to write a guideline on how to select a LiFePO4 for your motorcycle a few months back. perhaps that needs to be revisited before I burn out.
  5. GETTHUMPER2

    GETTHUMPER2 Been here awhile

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    :wink: That's an easy one,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just use the largest LiFePo4 that will fit in the tray,,,,,,,,,,,,because you never know when the extra AH's will be the difference between riding and walking. LOL
    Just "funnin", as always, thankx for all your very thorough and thoughtful hard work on this.
    THUMPER :clap:clap:clap
  6. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer

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    Since you are the thread OP, you can edit the first post. Why not change the first post to be an index into the best existing posts for the ones you most often repeat. You can refer to those by name and add whatever else is needed for a specific question. The how to choose a LiFeO4 could be linked there also. Should also contain links to the testing you and Joel have done. You are right, this is a great resource. I've learned a lot
  7. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    for some reason forum software is not allowing quotes ..

    KTM 1190/990 are restricted by battery tray size. yet still have large engines to support. like I've written about a jillion times already .. a 5AH actual battery is not big enough. this is where EarthX ETX36 (14AH) has a huge advantage in terms of small case size that fits 1190/990 and still deliver a robust AH capacity for all weather reliability.

    LiFePO4 batteries made of 10AH and 15AH cells will be very robust but still have size limitations. if you've got a dead battery case that fit's 1190 .. provided cells will all fit ... scoop it out and use 4x 10AH cells in series inside with straps that uses original battery terminals.

    don't worry about cell balancing for home made LiFePO4 batteries. worry more about robust straps that will survive 200amp+ continuous loads. most importantly protecting those internal buss from dead shorts.

    -----------------

    Hi CY_

    I´ll just throw some examples in here. My project bike will be 1190cc and ofcourse needs a fitting batteri option. I would like to go lifePo. Denmark/Scandinavia or just northeren Europe can be chilly at times and i won´t use the Lifepo option if it won´t do the job.
    We don´t get the Earth-X option which seems to be the trick.

    Can i use or make my own batteri from some of these? I of course respect if you don´t want to use the time on searching, but i´m lost in this World.
    http://www.ebay.de/sch/i-tecc/m.html...p2047675.l2562
  8. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    thanks ... believe it or not I wrote that exact line quite a ways back and have used it repeatedly. thank goodness it's catching on all over ..

    "just use the largest LiFePo4 that will fit in the tray,,,,,,,,,,,,because you never know when the extra AH's will be the difference between riding and walking.
  9. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Adventurer

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    After 2.5 months this is the status of my Ballistic (4S) battery:

    13.65 V - 3.29V 3.43 V 3.41 V 3.43 V

    The first series are unbalanced (it was from 1st day).

    I discharged it down to 12.25 V (3.26 V 3.08 V 3.09 V 3.09V - 4,386 mAh - 10:58h) and then balanced it. (14.39 V 3.60V 3.59 V 3.59 V 3.60 V 3.60 V - 6,362 mAh - 9:51h).

    I wonder if this is enough for a warranty claim...

    Also an engine start drops the voltage by 0.14 V (13.65 V from 13.79 V). Is it possible to calculate the percentage of capacity drop or the amperage? As I know Peukert's law and other PbCa math are useless here...

    I'm afraid the only way is a meter like Doc Wattson...
  10. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    don't worry about voltage drop that small during starting .. I've seen voltage drops below 9.5v during 200amp continuous cranking tests.

    it's completely normal for a quick drop from full charge voltage of 14.6v down to 13.3v. then discharge voltage will flatten out down for almost entire discharge cycle.

    your Ballistic has balance ports which allow balancing for each series. but not for individual cells. this is where quality control for battery selection comes into play. all 12cells needs to match closely .. as cell count goes up it becomes more difficult.

    are voltages above from a resting state overnight after a full charge to 14.6v? have you balanced charged your Ballistic battery yet?

    you can also do a series to moderate discharge/charge cycles to help balance out cells. note rapid voltage drop from 14.6v to 13.3 represents about 10% of AH capacity. then voltages for all cells narrows .. you can take advantage of this natural narrowing of voltages. this could be defined as a form of self balancing. if you repeat this discharge/charge cycle cells will slowly balance. but note this will not balance severely out of balance batteries.

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  11. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

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    I like that little meter.

    It is unfortunate it cannot be installed into the vehicle's wiring system for on-board monitoring.
  12. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Adventurer

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    That's what I'm thinking about! :)

    Yes, more than 17 hours.

    The battery was unbalanced from the beginning, that's why I wonder if I may file a warranty claim... It is severe, isn't it?
  13. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Adventurer

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    I believe you can. It has a clever way to tolerate with bike's amperage. But I've to confirm it with the manufacturer first...
  14. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    here's a post from David Gray one of the most knowledgeable battery guru in America. from this thread post #181 http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934&page=13

    -------------

    Quote:
    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="dg-bbcode dg-bbcode-quote"> Originally Posted by _cy_ [​IMG]
    @write2dgray .. thanks so much for joining this set of tests. As a matter of fact there is something that we need your expertise on.
    </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
    No problem - happy to help and my apologies for the delay. A hectic product release schedule has had me away from emails and forums lately.
    Quote:
    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="dg-bbcode dg-bbcode-quote"> Originally Posted by _cy_ [​IMG]
    question is ... by charging only to 13.8v like BMW R800GS ... does lower volt charging systems (13.8v) increase chances for out of balance cells?
    </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
    The concept of balancing should never enter the equation at lower than a full charge state. In other words, being out of balance at voltages less than full is of little to no concern.

    To expand: in the past some chargers actively balanced all cells regardless of state of charge (okay, some still do and many have the option). Most now agree to only mess with "balancing" cells to each other at a full state of charge, with the purpose being to bring all cells to an equal full charge state without one or more running away to a higher voltage. The problem with balancing at lower states of charges has to do with how cells are capacity matched prior to pack construction. Think of a series of glasses of water with slightly different volumes all filled to the brim. Now if you drank an equal amount from each glass you would find it takes an equal amount to refill them. However, if you drank an equal amount from each glass and then adjusted the water levels to be the same, then it would require unequal amounts to refill them. This is in effect what cell balancing at lower voltages achieves, unbalanced packs that require the exact opposite balancing action as they near full charge.

    Finally, charging to around around 95-98%, which you are at the voltages the alternator provides, will result in a substantial increase in life cycles than trying to perfectly charge to full voltage. This is done any many applications and by many users to extend life where absolute maximum capacity is not critical, by for example setting LiPo max. termination to 4.17V per cell instead of the more typical 4.20V.

    Cheers,
  15. DrWez

    DrWez Mad Scientist

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    Ballistic Performance Components recommended a 12 cell EVO2 battery for my 2010 BMW R1200 GS Adventure. This battery would not reliably turn my engine over especially when the temperature was lower than 50 F. The dealer arranged a replacement for me to try again. This one too was too weak to crank over my 1200 cc boxer engine.
    After speaking with Ballistic, the owner himself replaced my 12 cell battery with the 16 cell battery. This worked ok but still had some problems when the temperature dropped below 35 F.
    On a recent long distance trip, the 16 cell battery suddenly failed and would not even turn over my engine. After returning the battery to Ballistic Performance Components, I was told that the battery was full of water and most likely had been submersed in water. The water caused the battery to short out. Now it is useless after 10 months and would not be covered under warranty.
    Here is the problem... My 16 cell battery was never submersed in water! In fact my bike was not even washed in this time period. I ride every day rain or shine. The owner could not tell me why the water was in the battery other than it MUST have been submersed in water. I believe that there was a flaw in the plastic housing such as a crack or poor weld that allowed wheel spray into the battery.
    How can Ballistic Performance Components sell a product that is advertised as impact and water resistant and that can be mounted in any position for any power sport? Evidently, this battery is not ready for prime time! Do not purchase!
  16. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

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    What concerns me is the 14 gauge cable used in that monitor. It may be short in length, but then so is the OEM factory ground cable which is probably a 6 or 8 gauge cable.

    That meter claims 100A...in a 14 gauge cable. Well OK, if they say so.
  17. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

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    So much for high tech. :wink:
  18. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Adventurer

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    According to the manual, it can handle 50 A continuous and 100 A peak. But 14 AWG is only for 15 A. I'm not sure what's going on here...
  19. AKohler883

    AKohler883 Been here awhile

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  20. J_B

    J_B Mid-life Crisis

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    Anyone having trouble with Ballistic Batteries , I have tried 3 so far, the first 2 failed from poor cell connections after the cells came loose in the case ( they rattled) the last one caught fire , managed to pull it from the bike then it's slowly self destructed one cell at a time with lots of fizzing blanketing the suburb with a green tinged smoke.

    Happy I wasn't traversing the driest continent at the world

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