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Discussion in 'Road Warriors' started by Reverend12, Sep 23, 2009.
I believe with limited production bikes there is an EPA exemption.
It is strange how some people just not get the difference... are you seriously comparing the EBR 1190RS to the Motus?
The RS is one of the most incredible, purest, lightest and most extreme sportbikes ever engineered - the thing is totally radical. Check this out:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/14CbyKe-eNA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
It is a true exotic, and it perfectly justifies its asking price. People root for it because it is competing in the most difficult space of all (racing bikes) and putting up a fight by means of genius and engineering ingenuity. That's the underdog you cheer for. That's a product you can ask a premium for.
For the Confederate bikes the appeal is very different, it's all about the machining and the look of them. It is also a true boutique product, like a lot of one-off customs are. It's about exclusivity, fabrication and artisan skill. Do I like them? Not at all, but that is not the point. I can see them as a meaningful proposition for people who like this kind of bike and can afford them.
Which brings us back to the Motus... the problem is not how much they cost or whether or not there are enough people who can afford them (of course there are), the problem is that they look dull and ordinary (regardless of how they perform) while demanding exotic-level prices. If you want to be an exotic, you've to give your audience at least SOMETHING specific to lust about... performance? Crazy/wild looks? Unique tech? Incredible handling? Whatever...
The only selling point for the MTS is the engine, and even that... what is so great about it? The DFI is gone, so what's left? That maintenance is cheap and easy? In a bike that costs AT LEAST $30K? Hold still, my beating heart!
I love bikes, all of them, and I hope there are more and more on the street - I just don't see how the business case for Motus makes any sense.
Didn't OCC and Jesse James get nailed by the EPA a couple of years ago for selling non-compliant bikes?
And since S&S make compliant engines, it is hard to believe that Confederate is exempt:
I'm not comparing the bikes, I'm comparing the companies. My point was simply why is Buell's cause noble and Motus' cause ignoble? The Motus may not appeal to you (or me) but I want them to succeed. If people will spend nearly $30k on a Harley CVO (which is still underpowered and undersuspended), why not a Motus? If Motus can carve out a niche in the market, more power to them.
And please, don't get me wrong; I like, respect and admire Erik for everything he has done (and will do). I want him to succeed. When Erik steps it down a notch and makes a Ulysses Mk2, I'm there. I despise HD for screwing him over (twice) and holding him back for years; but.....he doesn't make an engine, he buys it from Rotax, along with suspension from Ohlins, etc.
BTW - I love your list of bikes - I'm guessing you are not married. Married guys don't have a fleet like that!
Rotax produces light aircraft power plants and does so with a solid reputation for reliability.
The Rotax singles and V-twins used in motorcycles in the past have proven near unburstable and achieve very high mileages.
The only issue I've read about was flywheel bolts on some of the early Aprilias using the V-twin.
These may have been installed by Aprilia as some models used lighter flywheels IIRC. Not sure but some came loose.
I wish Motus success but did note they offered their engine for sale right off the bat... Why? For racing cars or inboard racing boats?
How many have been sold and are on the road? If the answer is none... good luck Motus as the market is fickle and the sell by date may be past.
Brilliant post. You've expressed what many of us feel intuitively when looking at the Motus and then looking at its price. Now if you hired the people who did the design work on the Ducati 916 or Panigale to do the styling on the Motus, you might get some serious interest.
I think they look nice. Style is so subjective. Some people think the Victory Vision looks good.
since we continue to talk about the same thing, I'm with ya Apessino....my thoughts back in April of this year after the msrp was disclosed.
I rather like the motus, simple effective styling, great sounding motor, great power, I am sure by specs it will be or is a good carver and it is a USA built, designed machine. That is appealing too for me. If they can make an ADV version even better for all. The competition they have is well known, Motus is not. I don't like the unfortunate name, not really eponymous to be forgiven, not overly "American" sounding, it doesnt sound like a motorcycle.
if it was a 'motus V4 engined' whatever, might be a starting place.
and yes unique styling might help, but I find it familiar and nice looking, if safely done.
Man, when did ADV get the haters? I enjoyed cruising through this thread and especially the interview with the president of Motus - he totally described a bike that I'd love to own. My big adventure tourer does almost everything I could want but I miss how a great sport tourer is so much fun and everything about this bike seems great. Especially the sound.
I can't understand how anyone can complain about the price if people are still buying Harley's for $20-25K. It's an aspirational low production run bike - you can't expect it to be cheap. It will take a while before cheaper used ones begin to trickle into the market but that's when they'll start to get enough recognition to be able to bring down the price with higher production numbers. But hoping they'll fail? That's lame.
I'm hoping they'll succeed. I'll certainly look at picking up a used one down the road.
I've generally been reading this thread as a critical look at a bike some of us might buy. Don't think there's anything wrong with that. Otherwise... why have a forum? Just to cheer everyone on? Don't think the majority hope they fail, we're just talking about the bike is all.
There were a lot of Motus supporters, then they announced prices, now there are less. I was in for up to $25k, but bailed as soon as they topped $30k BASE. They moved to the 'exclusive' club quick. That might be the method of success- get $10k more per bike rather than sell 10 times the bikes. Keep volume low, capital costs low, become a assembler of sourced parts. I think it has a better chance of working than some of the other startups ever had.
I don't think you can compare a full dresser HD CVO at $30k to a new model, few dealers, no proof of sustainability, etc. HDs have resale and have a history and lifestyle that people buy into. Motus has 'rare' going for it.
I talk to 30-40 bike guys every week on Sundays. They own some of the strangest, rare, expensive bikes on the planet. A group where 7 Guzzis show up and no Harleys. None have heard of Motus when I ask.
The proof, as far as the bike goes, is as always in the riding. I look forward to taking a testride when possible, and could consider buying one if the company looks sound enough to be around to support it. It's a very difficult task to start and sustain such a company, but it does sound like they have decent backing and capital, and that they are employing sound engineering overall.
I've seen it in person on 3 occasions, and sat on it. It feels wieldy and well-balanced at rest, and seems like it would be a good ride.
It seems to me also that better can be to come, if they can get off the ground to start. More production can reduce prices. Hopefully they will bring the DFI back into the mix as soon as they can. And, especially since they already have a longitudinal engine configuration, I would hope that shaft drive would make an appearance in subsequent models.
I very much wish them success, and can't imagine why anyone wouldn't. Even if the bike doesn't appeal to you at all, what's the harm to you in it being on the market? Some people have been feasting on the sour grapes.
This is where I think the 'hope' is misguided. There are far more downsides to reducing prices than upsides. Don't ever expect a Motus, as shown, will ever be sold for under $30k new. They might add bits and doo-dads, but the price is as low as it ever is going to get.
There were lots of people saying that they might consider it for $20-25K, but $30K+ was too much. If they could get that price down to that range, they would be a lot more competitive in the touring market. The more you make, the more units you can amortize the fixed costs and the setup costs over. So we'll see. I'm not saying it will ever be a bargain bike, but many of the premium brands have been working to reduce prices and provide value for money. Prices on BMWs and Ducatis and others haven't risen nearly as much as the Japanese bikes have, and the price differential for stepping up is smaller than ever.
Lower the price 10k and you kill resale of all bikes you sold before, piss off all who bought in early, and lose credibility to others who may consider buying. Buell did that when they did the closeout (wow, there were a few loyalists who were PISSED), but they didn't have to worry about future sales.
The other side of that coin would be the need for more MFG space, more bodies to build bikes, less able to ebb and flow with the market.
Maybe selling 10 times less bikes for $10k more each is better than the other way around.
All of those choices will depend on a variety of factors; making blanket statements like you are doing is wrong and pointless. You can't say for sure that there are "far more downsides to reducing prices than upsides"; there may or may not be.
Buells started out very expensive, and got more reasonably priced over time, without running into any of what you are talking about. And I'm not talking about the closeout situation; I'm talking about the1990's and 2000's. Indeed, that's the plan for the current EBR as well -- start with limited production of an expensive handmade bike, and expand into larger-scale production of more affordable future models.
Maybe it will be better for Motus to be an expensive limited niche bike, and maybe not. I didn't say they would definitely choose one over the other; what I said was that if they do reasonably well, higher production would allow them the option of lowering prices and thus expanding their market. As with my comments in the same paragraph about restoring DFI to the design, and implementing shaft drive, I was saying that those were all things I would like to see, that I thought would be improvements.
Late September 2012, shouldn't this bike now be on sale somewhere?
Is production even underway yet?
Or have the banks pulled their financing?
Apparently they're alive and well and proceeding with production.
Motus City Bike Night
EDIT- 8 October
I just got the latest update email from Motus. Here's a link to the web page view of the message.
Motus Email Link
Gadget Girl, thanks for sharing that linky on the insider emails from Motus. Wow, they moved into the old Barber Museum. I was working down in that area of B'Ham back in August. I'll need to check that out next time I'm down there!
I note that Motus has secured financing from GE Capitol for the floorplan financing, Plus with the partnership with FreedomRoad Financial (Zero Down, 84 month financing) some of the FF's who complained about the cost of ownership may have a change of heart.