MSF Instructor was an MF'er

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Mrs6gun, Sep 22, 2012.

  1. LittleRedToyota

    LittleRedToyota Yinzer

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    i wasn't saying otherwise. just pointing out that some bikes actually can be stopped just as well with 1 finger as with 2 or 4.
  2. JimVonBaden

    JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid!

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    One finger will give me 90% stopping power on my bike. That is enough that I do not feel the need to ride with two on the lever at all times.

    Oh, and I have a use for the other finger too!:evil

    Jim :brow
  3. Dan-M

    Dan-M Long timer

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    +1
    I almost always cover with two but getting the back tire off the ground on my Aprilia is possible with one.
  4. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Love those blue pipes

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    Understood and agreed! I don't own any modern or sporty enough bikes where I can comfortably get full power and control with only one finger but I don't always use all four either. On my DR there is only room for 3 fingers max on the lever and my GS does very well with less than a full hand (should I so choose), especially when you consider it is seventeen years old - I do take good care of the brakes, however.
  5. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    See, I wasn't going to say that because I didn't want to sound like "my way or the highway", but yeah.

    Also- I don't care how many years or miles someone claims to have ridden when they show up- Experience has taught me that those are meaningless as far as actual skill development, so in all fairness- every student is new rider.

    For example- on a Rebel 250, to actually get it to stop, you're going to want more than two fingers. (Have I ridden one? Sixteen hours in one weekend, riding errors for Instructor Prep count?)

    Please post video of emergency braking with one finger while flipping someone off with the same hand.
  6. rocker59

    rocker59 diplomatico di moto

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    "Beginners Riding Course" is a misnomer. Should be "Pre-licensing Course".

    It's not for actual beginners. And, if a beginner actually draws a class where they are the only true beginner, they will be berated and booted, post haste.

    It's just the way it is.

    My GF found out the hard way. (who was I to try and stop her?) She had never ridden a motorcycle (10,000 miles as a passenger, though), and showed up to a Biker's Edge BRC as the only beginner in the class. Most of the other "beginners" already owned, and were riding motorcycles.

    The curve was set, and my GF was quickly booted after being throughly shitted on by the POS instructor at the local HD shop. No, even after repeated phone calls, she was not given a refund. It was an expensive few hours.

    The BRC may have been for beginners at some point in the past, but now it's just a State-sanctioned money-making scheme, not a place for beginners to go and learn how to ride motorcycles. Just a place for riders to get that piece of paper for licensing endorsements and insurance discounts.

    As mentioned, a dirt bike and a cow pasture is a good idea before enduring a BRC.
  7. tedder

    tedder irregular

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    Do you have any proof besides anecdotes?

    My experience is that out of 12 riders, perhaps 8 will have never sat on a bike before. A few need to get legal but are fairly new. That's from teaching a few dozen classes.

    Generally, the "problem" students aren't the new students or those who are receptive to coaching. It's the ones who "know better". Occasionally there would be someone lacking the coordination required to ride.
  8. rocker59

    rocker59 diplomatico di moto

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    Do you?

    :rolleyes
  9. tedder

    tedder irregular

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    More than just a single experience.

    And I completely agree with you on this:
    Seems MSF should be concerned about safety, not selling bikes.
  10. rocker59

    rocker59 diplomatico di moto

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    The one I used was one example. A close to home example.

    I could go on, and on, but I won't.

    I'm not saying the MSF BRC or BE BRC are bad things. They simply aren't places for rank beginners to go and learn how to ride motorcycles...
  11. tedder

    tedder irregular

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    So what is? Can all rank beginners handle the "field and 110cc" method?

    My concern isn't the "I can ride in a straight line without falling", it's "this is my first mile on pavement and there's a diesel F250 turing in front of me and I've never tried strong braking".
  12. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    Think of it as pre-school before starting Kindergarten. It's low-pressure learning from someone who has the time to get the student to the point that they can start, stop, and turn without losing control. MSF obviously doesn't have the time to do it.

    MSF tells the grads that they are only qualified to ride around a parking lot when they leave. WTF does that have to do with a "diesel F250"?
  13. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    Yes, he does- two or three years worth, before he moved to L.A. Were he to move back to Oregon tomorrow, I'd be pushing him to get back out there again, because he was pretty good at it.

    Anyway, the topic at hand. Since the required age in Oregon has gone up, I find that less true. Probably even thirds beginners, used to ride, and some current experience (typ. dirt bike or been riding sans endorsement.)

    OTOH, The number of people that have never sat on a motorcycle at any time is vanishingly small- but that's still where we start.

    I will note one commonality amongst the "BRC is not for beginners" rants: the classes in question are all taught in conjunction with HD dealerships.
  14. Human Ills

    Human Ills Useful Idiom

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    Getting to the dirt is, for a sizable population, a major hurdle.
  15. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    I've done it using a community college parking lot on a Sunday morning. Doesn't really need to be dirt.
  16. dbuzz

    dbuzz Citizen of the world

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    I disagree.

    Any basic training course should be able to take a rank beginner (ie never been on a bike before) from no idea to safe beginner level operation of the bike in one day. This is not rocket science but there is a common pattern to how the incremental steps are best introduced to the student. How the MSF syllabus progresses through these basic steps is very much the same as how it is done here ... some petty details aside. It works for almost all prospects.

    If rank beginners are feeling overwhelmed then maybe they were sorted into the wrong student bunch by the provider at the booking in stage or perhaps OSB (love that acronym:D) as another poster in this thread suggested. Being wrongly sorted may not be a problem if the instructor is skilled enough to cope but, like beginning riders, instructors also have a 'Bell Curve' when it comes to aptitude, ability and experience.
  17. rocker59

    rocker59 diplomatico di moto

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    "should be".

    Yes. Should be.
  18. tedder

    tedder irregular

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    Three.

    It was incredibly tiring. And people thought I was doing it for the money. :rofl :rofl :rofl
  19. dbuzz

    dbuzz Citizen of the world

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    Yes ... 'should be' ... but students are not robots... Neither are instructors. A well designed course will achieve the desired outcome for most students who will achieve the competencies and progress to the next stage.

    A few students will require a repeat - no biggy ... not everyone learns at the same rate. Occassionally there will be one who requires multiple repeats ... sometimes with different instructors (cos the previous ones refused to continue because of the danger:huh) who then somehow scrapes by and ends up progressing to the road ride and crashing at the first roundabout and breaking their leg:eek1. The first instructor advised counselling this one out but egos got involved and others felt they could do a better job :rofl

    Anyone providing training needs to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em ...
  20. JimVonBaden

    JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid!

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    Coming from a professional trainer, it is my opinion that anyone who resorts to yelling in a situation where imminent injury or death is not present should NOT be teaching others. It is particularly important to stay calm and resonate confidence when teaching something like riding to a new rider. Any anxiety in the instructor will instantly take a nervous student over the edge.

    From what I has seen of SOME MSF instructors, not only do they not have personal riding skills, but they love to think they are better than others, when challenged react very poorly, and lack actual training skills.

    That said, there are some who are fairly awesome instructors.

    If you are an MSF instructor, look in the mirror and evaluate yourself honestly. Where do you think you fit, the first or the second group?

    Jim :brow