MSF Instructor was an MF'er

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Mrs6gun, Sep 22, 2012.

  1. dbuzz

    dbuzz Citizen of the world

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    I agree about the yelling thing. Once the fight starts there aint much learning going on by either side :lol3

    The other points you raise could apply to any teaching process. Some people teach kindergarten .. some teach university ... and should never try to fit the others shoes :D
  2. Reverend12

    Reverend12 Well there it is..

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    A "talented" MSF Instructor would never yell at a student unless there was a imminent chance of injury. If You don't have patience, You shouldn't be teaching.
  3. CaptnSlo

    CaptnSlo Derelicte

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    I'm sorry your girlfriend had a terrible experience with the BRC. I can imagine that it would be pretty intimidating to be one of the only beginners in a beginner class.

    I did have a different experience. I took the BRC this summer, offered through a community college, with zero riding experience. About 70% of my class were outright newbs too or had a dirt bike as a kid and were starting to ride again in their 30s/40s. No one started out perfectly, but by the time we had to take the riding test, no one messed up enough to fail. In fact, with the exception of two people, everyone was riding pretty well consistently. I think one's experience in the course really depends on the instructors and the location. In a state/city where riding is popular, maybe you'll get more experienced people taking the class. I'm fortunate that that wasn't the case for me - starting out was a little nerve wracking but it helped knowing that I wasn't the only one going through the learning process. And our instructors seemed to understand that we were all learning and gave us a lot of encouragement. But yeah, it sounds like the course varies all over, but I wouldn't dismiss it completely, at least from my own experience.
  4. dbuzz

    dbuzz Citizen of the world

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    A raised voice does not necessarily equal impatience. I am somewhat hearing impaired so low talkers annoy the heck out of me especially if there is a lot of ambient noise. I would be asking "please speak up" which may lead to someone else thinking they were being yelled at :dunno
  5. TheWorstKind

    TheWorstKind In the Wind

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    I teach an average of 16 MSF BRCs during a year. Been doing it since 1996 (yes, I'm from the RSS days). Every single one of them is conducted at a beginner's level, so I vehemently disagree that the BRC is no longer a beginner's course. I have had as many as eleven newbies, or as few as two. Usually less than half the class are newbies, nevertheless, I run it as if all are beginners. I try to challenge the more experienced riders with sometimes a little more speed, go a little deeper into the corner prior to braking, do the off-set weaves in 2nd gear, etc. The less experienced riders I continuously remind that technique is more important than speed. That technique, by the way, includes using four fingers for braking. If an experienced rider continuously uses two, well, so be it. I myself sometimes use two, sometimes ride with the front brake lever covered :eek1 , or even brake while leaned over :eek1:eek1. As I have stated earlier, most of the instructors I work with are fine folks, but I have witnessed conflicts. I have had conflicts myself, as it is impossible to make everybody happy all the time. I enjoy conducting the vast majority of my classes, but sometimes there is that one student who makes for a bad day. I am sure it works vice versa, as well.

    By far the most common difficulty I encounter is petite females operating the hand controls. This is followed by folks who are very nervous, despite my best efforts. Usually these folks struggle with shifting and stopping quickly. Another sub-group are the ham-fisted folks - they cannot gently crack the throttle or progressively get harder on the front brakes. The folks that cannot pay attention, and there are quite a few, are easily handled by letting them be followers vice exercise leaders .

    Anyways, the point of all this...I believe that the MSF BRC is, indeed, for beginners, that it is worthwhile even for experienced riders, and that the majority of coaches and students really try to do a fine job.
  6. tedder

    tedder irregular

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    "I know you know how to ride, but I want you to set a good example for the beginners in the class".

    You've been reported.

    This often seems/seemed to be the large dudes. You know, over 6 feet, over 240lbs. Some bikes are less forgiving (thinking of the TW200 clutch).
  7. spibbie

    spibbie sportster barbarian

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    Mrsgun, for sure there are assholes everywhere, some attempting to teach MSF courses. I was lucky when I took it, my instructors were great.

    Try again, the dirt bike suggestions I agree with and to make your online time even more productive (than venting here) towards safe MC riding I'll suggest looking for you tube videos made by one of the posters in this thread, Capt Crash. I found them very informative, and pretty funny too.

    best of luck, me
  8. OaklandStrom

    OaklandStrom Long timer

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    One thing that I saw was a lack of flexibility in the instruction. The instructors had to read from a script. No matter how good a script is, it won't fit every situation. That's where I think the curriculum fails.

    I am in charge of education at a company that trains people to use dangerous items before they use them (I'm being intentionally vague here). The classes are mandatory before you use the equipment, but they are generally short, and teach basic usage and safety. Like motorcycling, people aren't taking our classes because they have to, but because they want to do something new. I have to trust the instructors to *lightly* modify the curriculum, on the spot, in order to be the most effective teacher possible. MSF doesn't seem to allow that (at least from my experience).

    And for the guy who was helping the other students, dragging pegs and not following instructions on braking, I would have removed him from my class and backed up any instructor who threw him out. As an educator, if there was somebody in my class "helping" other students, I would ask them to stop if it was more than just an occasional tip. It's all about respect - if a guy doesn't respect the noobs in the class by shutting up, not showboating and wasting the time of the instructor, then leave.

    I could have given all sorts of tips in class. I could have demonstrated my superior skills (which isn't hard to do with a parking lot full of people who don't know how to use a clutch). I didn't - I shut my mouth, listened to the instructor and thanks him for his input. He was saving me a trip to the DMV, but his real purpose was to teach the noobs. Respect it.
  9. livo

    livo Been here awhile

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    ^^^ +1 billion

    I am a teacher (not MSF or anything - I teach at a university), and it warms my heart to hear someone say that :clap:clap
  10. Human Ills

    Human Ills Useful Idiom

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    I get a kick out of the thought that there are 'expert' riders out there who think that an MSF course is a cool place to show off.
  11. tedder

    tedder irregular

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    It is fun to take a fully loaded adventure bike, complete with happy trails panniers, through the exercises.

    :evil

    I think I was told "don't do that, you'll scare the students".
  12. Human Ills

    Human Ills Useful Idiom

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    Damn, that does sound cool.:lol3
  13. rocker59

    rocker59 diplomatico di moto

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    "Basic", "Beginners", whatever. I still say it should be called "pre-licensing class", because that's effectively what it is...

    From thier site:

    Learning-to-Ride RiderCourses are a good starting point for most people who have already made the decision that motorcycling may enhance the quality of their life and want to get started the best possible way. This series provides the basic mental and physical skills for riding.

    Basic RiderCourse (BRC)
    The best place for a new rider to start once they've made the decision to ride. Successful completion of this course and its knowledge and skill tests, which consists of approximately five hours of classroom and 10 hours of on-cycle instruction (conducted over two or three sessions), may serve as a license test waiver program in some states. Motorcycles and helmets are provided for your use during the course.

    http://msf-usa.org/index_new.cfm?pa...3D5-64D098C9870C8030&referer=MSF RiderCourses
  14. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    There is very little to be learned from the like minded. :deal
  15. rocker59

    rocker59 diplomatico di moto

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    Look. I know the MSF is a good thing.

    I just think it's Bullshit that they take money from people with zero experience, then boot 'em in the first hour or two of the riding part.

    If a customer calls to sign up and says they have zero experience, they should be turned away. If they say they want to take the BRC "to learn how to ride", they should be turned away.

    I've seen/heard enough stories, and experienced one myself, to know that BRC is not for beginners, and beginners should be advised to learn how to ride, then come back for the BRC.

    :dunno
  16. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    And if you're not, ask yourself if you could be. The reason the not-so-good ones are out there is that there's a need, and nobody else is trying to fill it.
  17. dbuzz

    dbuzz Citizen of the world

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    That's the silliest argument I have read so far :lol3:rofl

    Exactly where would you like these people with "zero experience" to go to learn to ride??? To a mate that will show them how they've been doing it for 35years and can show them how to 'lay 'er down'??? :huh

    Of course they are pre-license courses!! ... why else would someone (for the most part) do a BRC unless they wanted to ride on the public road?

    FWIW people do not get booted from courses here ... but they may get stopped for that day and sent to remedial class.
  18. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    :puke1
    I think He was talking about students doing that. Oh wait- you did that as a student. I taught that class.

    DAKEZ- get your sarcasm meter checked; I think Tedder's comment blew the fuse so fast you never noticed.

    Shogs? You're wrong, dear.

    If they expected people knew how to operate a motorcycle, why spend the first hour (two hours?) teaching them to use the clutch, brakes, shifter, etc.?

    A lot of places offer that class also, a one-day version that strips out all the basic control operation exercises and get into the fun stuff.

    Take a program designed to be offered to anyone that basically teaches them how to become a self-guided missile, and let Joe RiderCoach tweak it the way he sees fit? Probably, a fair number of RC's could pull that off. Mind, if he's off the script and a student gets hurt, he's going to get sued, and will have nothing to stand on.

    How many active RiderCoaches are there, maybe 10,000? Not all of those are capable of making those judgements. Now you have to qualify who can, and who can't. Last I heard MSF was having enough issues scaling it's training processes as-is.

    Most likely, some that know they're not up to that will try anyway. Even with it being forbidden, Ive read things here like "the instructor said 'The book says to use both brakes, but I'm telling you that front brake is dangerous and you should avoid it'."

    Coudl the script be better? Maybe. And maybe they should work to have an environment where students ask questions, which has always worked well for me.
  19. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    And how many successes have you not heard about?
  20. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Love those blue pipes

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    People saying crap like this leads a lot of beginners to avoid doing something that could ease their learning and possibly save their lives. If you know of a better alternative, please expound