My 640 is making oil>>>>>>

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Zerodog, Aug 30, 2006.

  1. Zerodog

    Zerodog Long timer

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    Over the last 2 months I have been working through issues with my new to me 03 640. This is a new one. Yesterday my bike was getting pretty hot just riding around town. Hotter than ever before and it wasn't hot outside. So when I got home I started hunting.

    First off it was low on coolant. I don't know where it went. It was about 2 cups of coolant to top it off.

    Second thing is the oil in my site glass was too high. Actually past where I could even see the oil line. It has been about 1000 miles since my last oil change. I have watched the oil level rise slightly over the last week or 2 in the window. It happened so slow I wasn't sure if I was imagining it or not. But sure as hell I sucked 175ccs of oil out of the engine to get it back down to the high mark. The oil was opaque but not black or milky looking and it didn't smell gassy. But I guess it could still be gas. If it was water there would be mayo looking funk on my oil filler cap and the oil would look milky right? Or does full sythetic oil emulsify water really well and suspend it in the oil? It did take more coolant to fill the radiator than what I sucked out of the engine to get it back to the correct level.

    Is it possible that I filled the oil wrong in the first place? Should the bike be hot or cold when filling to the high mark on the glass? I did it when cold after I bled the tube.

    So the question is where did this oil come from/ or what got in the oil to increase it's level?

    I am going to install a coolant catch bottle to see if that fixes my disappearing coolant problem.
    #1
  2. MartinDKtm

    MartinDKtm Been here awhile

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    Maybe a water pump rebuilt job will be needed....It sound like it.
    #2
  3. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Don't know what kind of miles are on your bike Rob, but it seems that water pump seals like to get "loose" at some point. Some have gone 20-30K before this happens, others can't make it to 15K. Not enough anecdotal info to determine the cause or causes.
    I may arbitrarily replace mine this winter... just so I don't get any surprises next summer in the middle of a ride.

    LC4 Pilot wrote an excellent guide on replacing the seals here.

    Best 'O luck with the repair,
    C
    #3
  4. Rad

    Rad Just me

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    Yup, as they say, it must be blown H2O pump seals. Mine was also make'n oil. It was about $75 bucks for new seals or $150 for a new pump, I bought a new pump and it fixed her right up.
    #4
  5. Zerodog

    Zerodog Long timer

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    Damn.........I should have bought a new bike....... I have had to do quite a few things to my 9 out of 10 bike, so far this one tops it as far a pain in the ass. As I recall my oil was about the same color the first time I changed it. And my coolant was a little low after my 1000 mile trip back. So I probably bought it with this issue.....along with a few others that have sucked as well.

    Does the new pump come with everything so you can just slap that puppy in? I didn't want to have to get into the cover but oh well. That is the way it goes.
    #5
  6. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    It's a complete assembly... everything in #1.

    [​IMG]

    Pretty much use LC4 Pilot's guide and my cover re-seal guide as reference material... especially if you don't have a motor manual, and you should be good to go.

    C
    #6
  7. Zerodog

    Zerodog Long timer

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    I have read both. Thanks for the help and the great guides for this stuff guys.

    I guess it is time to buy some parts and some good beer.
    #7
  8. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Have fun with it....

    [​IMG]
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  9. Zerodog

    Zerodog Long timer

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    Tonight I tore into the orange beast and found a leaking water pump. The hardest part was finding TDC. I haven't figured out a way to strap my dial indicator on very well so it took a few trys. I know you can do it with a straw but I am a machinist. I want to know within .001". I can't help it! I also found that the valve cover was starting to leak on the left front side over the exhaust port. Just as Creeper had said is the problem zone.

    First when I pulled the breather hose I noticed Mayo up in the frame tube. That is what I was expecting to see on my oil filler cap. Then when I got the sucker out there was coolant on the inside of the pump where there should only be oil. The bearings feel pretty nasty too.

    The good news is there was hardly any sealant at all on the valve cover. It is almost totally clean. 10 min with a paper towel and brake cleaner will have it spotless. No scraping will be needed at all. My parts should be in on Tuesday. It sucks because I had to pay for overnight and I won't get it until tuesday because of the holiday. My dealer also didn't get it ordered today because their GM that wasn't there. I guess he has to approve the orders before they go out or some crap like that.
    So now I wait. I hope everything comes together next week. I have a 3 day fishing/ camping/ backcountry ride planned for next weekend. To top it all off the day I discovered the coolant/ oil thing I found my rear shock just started leaking oil.:cry

    So with the bike down I am sending my shock off to Javier at TrailTrick to rebuild and hotrod it for me. He said he will be able to do it in a day and get it sent out to me overnight. Overnight shipping sucks but that is the way it is this time. It is either bite the bullet or no fish for me! The plan is to get the waterpump in tuesday night so the sealant can dry until thursday. Friday I can test it. Then Saturday we ride and the fish better watch out.

    Thanks again for the great write ups on this procedure. It would have been a pain without them.
    #9
  10. Duke777

    Duke777 Adventurer

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    I must say you have the patience of job. I am on my first KTM - likely my last - it is just one thing after another. Now I am leaking oil from any number of places. I drive an Acura and not a 1970 MG for a reason, guess i should gotten the acura motorcycle - xr650. But I really love this bike - such a fine line b/w love and hate. Good luck
    #10
  11. braaap!

    braaap! waiting for the big one

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    Hey Man! have you ever been out on a ride with others on various 'breeds'.... and at the first... second and later stops noticed that the klr/klx/xr/etc riders just park up, walk away from their bike and do whatever!....

    'cept the ktm riders do same, park up, walk away... and stop!... look back... and smile a special knowing smile.

    :D

    la mia famiglia...
    #11
  12. davorallyfan

    davorallyfan Commonist

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    Like... light up a malbrogh and stare at the horizon.:lol3

    Met this bloke Wayne Kerr now he had a special smile:smooch
    #12
  13. todd83-900t

    todd83-900t Been here awhile

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    I'm with you on the whole +- 0.001" If you ever figure it out please post a picture.
    #13
  14. gunnerbuck

    gunnerbuck Island Hopper

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    For locating and holding the engine at TDC there is a locating bolt on the shifter side on the front of the engine beside the spin on filter. Remove this 8mm bolt, shine a flashlight in and when the engine is at TDC with the valves slack you will see a recess cutout in the crankshaft. You can use KTM part #580 30 080 000 to screw in this hole and engage the cutout to in effect lock the crankshaft at TDC while you work on the engine. I made my own locating screw by using a 8mm stud, grind a point on one end and a screw driver slot on the other so you can turn it in. I prefer this unit to the KTM unit as it clears the oil filter better.
    #14
  15. Zerodog

    Zerodog Long timer

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    KTMs are really good bikes. I just bought one in not so good condition. My 300 KTM has been flawless. And I hammer it. The shock is normal stuff. I am guessing it has never ever had anything done to it and the bike has 16,000 miles on it. And from what creeper says the water pump is par for the course too. I haven't lost faith in the bike yet. I just bought one that needed more love than I was wanting to give. The bike was supposed to be in primo shape. I guess there are different meanings of primo. Hopefully after I get these things sorted out it will be all good.
    #15
  16. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    Man, when it rains it pours! :arg

    Too bad you are so meticulous, otherwise you could have just used creeper's " TDCC is where you find it..." how-to in the index. I know you are a machinist, but he really knows valves - for example:

    Although he might be indicating that there are times when you would want to more precisely measure TDCC (now? :dunno LC4Pilot stated creeper's TDCC guide was adequate for this proceedure.), I got the impression they don't care much about 0.001" ( how many degrees of flywheel rotation?)... well, read his how-to!

    From his valve adjustment how-to I found valves do care about 0.001" of travel, and "measuring" that was a learning experience to say the least. You machinists must enjoy it. :lol3
    #16
  17. todd83-900t

    todd83-900t Been here awhile

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    I apologize, what I meant to write was that I'm interested in using a dial indicator to measure the valve lash, not find TDC. I'm not a fan of feeler gauges, you have to get the angle just right.

    Sorry for the distraction.
    Todd
    #17
  18. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Why? Is a .001" increment feeler gauge less accurate than your .001" increment dial indicator... which must be in perfect alignment with the arc of the rocker arm to be 100% accurate?
    Is your "feel" so suspect that you don't trust your own measurements when using a feeler gauge?
    Do you not believe that a .006" feeler gauge is actually .006"?
    Are you aware that there is less error in the average feeler gauge blade than in your average dial indicator?

    In all truth... what is your rationale for poo poo'ing a feeler gauge in this application?
    My intent is not to embarrass you Todd... I want to understand why you would perceive a dial to be a better choice of measuring device in this application...a reason to warrant a far more complicated method with a greater chance for error.

    My history is in mechanical and technical education... so what I'm looking for is the logic behind the tool usage.
    If you've been mislead, or have an erroneous pre-conceived notion... operating under a misconception so to speak, I'd like to offer some perspective.

    C
    #18
  19. todd83-900t

    todd83-900t Been here awhile

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    .....now I've done it:)

    Here's my reasoning. The total error in the valve lash measurement = error in your technique + instrumentation error.
    Lets look at each contribution separately.

    Instrumentation error:
    My Harbor Freight test indicator has a graduation of .0005" so I'll say that it'll be accurate to within +- 0.0005 ish? for an absolute measurement. I'd be using it to take a difference so the bias in the indicator should cancel out. I'm not sure about the hysteresis effects, with this cheap-o gauge.

    Feeler gauge: I'm not sure what the tolerance of the motion-pro gauge is maybe +- 0.0002" ish? (probably more accurate)

    The feeler blade is more accurate and if this was the only source of error I'd be happy with either instrument, but it isn't.

    Technique error

    My experience (1 valve adjustment) with a feeler gauge has been that the measurement is not repeatable for the reasons listed below. I'm really big on repeatability.

    • -When I used 2 different feeler gauges, (home made & motion pro) the "feel" were significantly different, which is disconcerting. In theory they should have "felt" exactly the same. The main difference between the two gauges was the way the blade was mounted on the holder.

      -If there is any deformation/flexing in the blade as you move it back and forth you'll get a different "feel."

      -Any oil on the blade gives you a different "feel." The "feel" is really the amount of force necessary to overcome the static/dynamic friction. Yes, I wiped the blade clean before each measurement, but there was still oil residue on the shoe & rocker arm.

      -One of the two surfaces is on a gimble and positioning the gauge so you're measuring the minimum distance between shoe and the rocker arm is challenging. Challenging only because of the poor access.

    With a test indicator you'd need to be careful about positioning the pointy thing on top of the adjustment nut/screw but if you're consistent on every valve I think you'll get a better measurement. It should also be very repeatable. As a sanity check you could, and probably should, go back and use a feeler gauge. Again I've never used this technique but it appears that there would be fewer variables that you have to control for. Also access would be better.

    Nothing will be 100% accurate but I spent 2 nights after work trying to get the right "feel" and I'm just looking for a better way.

    Todd
    P.S. If you'd like to continue this discussion we should probably start a new thread or converse via email.
    #19
  20. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Interesting... so a combination of lack of repeatability on your part, based on your inconsistency of feel, and a desire to remove those inconsistent perceptions from the task warrants the use of a dial indicator.

    When the touch of the hand is suspect... trust the repeatability of the machine instead... yes?

    Seems reasonable... and going back and forth between two forms of feeler gauge could be frustrating in this application. What to trust... yes?

    I would put it to you that extreme accuracy, in this case is not required. A "feel" of 0.0005" +/- is more than sufficient for the precision needed. I wouldn't worry about the oil... but rather use it to your advantage.

    I would suggest using a micrometer (I just know you have one), set to .006", with a film of motor oil on the anvils, as a reference gauge for your feeler gauge feel.
    If the valve lash feels similar to the micrometer feel... you have more than enough accuracy for the precision required.

    If you feel more comfortable with using a dial indicator, and it's obvious you understand how to achieve good accuracy with one, then by all means use it in good health.
    When doing our own work, we have the luxury of doing it at any pace we choose... so the method of measurement should be the one we have faith in, regardless of the time we might need to produce that measurement.

    Inquisition over... have a nice day. :wave
    C
    #20