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Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by chunter, Jan 3, 2009.
drrags ! You bought one too ha ?
If your F800GS or F650GS runs great but stalls in heavy rain at no or low throttle settings, it is due to water getting into the airbox, pooling in the bottom until it gets sucked into the Idle Air Control pathway. The idle air path is the only way air is reaching the motor when the throttle butterflies are closed (and during that small transition when butterflies are slighly opened). What kills the motor (when throttle is nearly closed/chopped closed) is that the idle air is passage is essentially closed by the water. This is also why it surges at small throttle openings, and runs fine at larger throttle opening. Water sucked into the combustion chamber only makes it run rough - water vapor makes it run a little better. But no air makes it no a'run at all.
In my case the water wasn't getting sucked in the snorkles, it was creeping past the seal that is supossed to be formed by the rubber edge of the airfilter element. This was evident by the snorkles still being dusty with pollen and a cobweb intact in the airfliter cover (and I ride everyday-?!), but a slathering of dried dirt/mud around the base of the airfilter cover. Take it apart and you can see that it would be easy for someone, at the factory say, to be sloppy in putting the cover on. I believe some people are not having the problem because their filter is making a good seal. If you took it apart between the problem happening and instituting some form of 'fix', then you may have reinstalled it correctly, thus eliminating the problem and convincing you that your fix did the trick.
Once the watersource is turned off, the waterpool at the bottom inside of the airbox dries up pretty quickly during running by evaporating into the flow of intake air.
I do not discount the idea that water may also get in thru the snorkels. It may enter on all bikes with similar intake setups, but the water does not clog important idle airways in those bikes (such as f800S/ST).
BMW's fix, if they ever get around to it, will likely be to either improve the airfilter element gasket edge or redesign the airfilter cover so that sloppy assembly doesn't creat the problem in the first place. Maybe they will do the right thing and redesign the airbox to put the idle control valve intake hole higher up.
Oh my god - my worse fears are about to be realized. The "go anywhere" and "do anything" combat touring motorcycle didn't make it back form the first storm of the season. BMW's F800 GS does not run in the rain.
OK - if you want to be ready for rain you should go out and practice before you're a thousand miles form home. So the clouds rolled in and I went for a spin. The rain was very hard and it came down in buckets. I was traveling along in traffic when the tach goes to ZERO and I'm rolling down the road at 40 mph. I gently slipped the clutch and the compression almost cause a high speed skid so I rolled to the side of the road to get out of the way of all the cars and trucks.
At first the engine would NOT restart and I sat in the rain for a long while - in a complete state of shock and dismay. It eventually restarted but ran very rough all the way back.
I ran my Honda 750 in the rain - the 919 was never bothered and the VFR ate up miles of interstate in thunderstorm after thunderstorm on my last tour - high speed touring with torrential wind driven RAIN for hour after hour. My rain gear worked and so did my motorcycle!
Today I was stuck on the side of the road five minutes from home - some %$#*ing adventure type guy am I. FIRST TIME EVER. The most expensive bike I ever bought and it won't run in the rain. Ten minutes into a storm and the party is over!
Anyone want to comment?
Yea the new guy is pissed.
Make sure you report it to your dealer or BMW NA.
The dealer went over my bike on Friday for the stalling issue and there were no fault codes and no sign of any water. There was no information available to suggest an ongoing problem with this model and nothing from BMW NA.
On Saturday I was caught in the rain again and within minutes the stalling was enough to cause me to cancel my plans to tour all weekend and head for the dealer. A real let down.
Water is backing up into the evap canister and the fuel tank can't breath. There is a problem with the vacuum system that could not be resolved. A drain tube was added to just divert the water, but the mechanic was NOT comfortable with all the loose ends and I was asked to leave with a DEMO F800 GS (and not ride in the rain).
1300 miles and my new GS is in the shop and cannot be repaired.
The Dealer will contact BMW NA on Monday and determine what the "fix" will be. I have seen as many posts explaining that the problem does NOT exist as I have seen where the problem does exist.
How about you remove the evaporative cannister.. the US is the only market in the world to have it.. I've ridden in the rain with mine without any issues. My bike has no cannister.
Each complaint is a vote for a fix so bringing it up to the dealer, BMW NA, and posting in forums like this is helpful to the rest of us experiencing the problem. My dealer claimed to have never of heard of such a problem with the bike. I find it hard to believe given the number of people experiencing issues.
My bike, which has 1300 miles on it now has had stalling issues with NO rain involved. Been riding about 70/30, dirt to street.
<p>First time was with approx 300 miles on the clock. Happened after a bout 3 hours high up in the mtns, over 8500 feet. It would cut out in 1st or second at low/idle RPM's. Then, when I tried to start it would instantly die. Had to rev the RPM's and drop in in first to get going.
<p>Took it in for the 600 miles and they said, "weird". They re-set the "adaptations" saying I probably messed them up when I rev'ed the engine to start it. I had to pay for this.
<p>Now, 1300 miles in, and I'm having the same thing, but worse and more often. Only happens after I riding for a few hours, which always ends up being over 8500 (I live in Boulder, CO). It would just cut out all the time, especially after I shut it off for a few minutes. Would be really hard to start as well, jut cut right out. Caused me to drop the bike on pavement once, which was a total drag.
<p>Let it sit in my cool garage for a 2 hours once I got home and the same thing, sputtering and then cut out in neutral.
<p>Obviously I'm gonna call the dealer, but anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?
<p>Thanks in advance!!
Today my Dealer will contact BMW NA asking what to do as a remedy to this RAIN/STALLING problem. I doubt they can authorize the removal of the canister without considering the emissions requirements that put the canister there in the first place. Although the removal of the canister might be the fastest way to get MY F800 GS back on the road. That would seem like FORD telling the dealers to remove.... a catalytic converter if a design flaw made engines run rough IN CERTAIN CONDITIONS.
It seems like the vacuum lines at the back of the box will need to be relocated, but I don't like the idea that my Dealer will have to drill holes and IMPROVISE. I like the people at the Dealer. When I showed up in the pouring rain they waved me into the service area immediately and began work on my bike before I even had my helmet off.
I don't want them caught in the middle.
I have respect for what they tried to do for me, but I just cancelled a three day tour with four of my friends. A 1200 GS a couple of KLRs and a FJR - I just told them keep riding and not to look back. I would try to have my bike repaired and ready for the next trip.
Was the engine damaged after 45 minutes of misfiring and uneven fuel delivery?
Was water sucked into the engine?
Will there be long term issues with reliability because of IMPROVISED modifications?
Is my motorcycle ALREADY at risk for future problems?
Did water intrude into other places the engineers never dreamed possible?
With every passing day my mind races ahead with seemingly stupid questions. I plan to spend the entire afternoon on this project. I'll give the Dealer a chance to communicate with BMW NA and then I'll get on the phone. I will have to admit that I have been quite shaken by nearly crashing when the engine stalled the first time AND all that has happened so far.
Item - overfilling the fuel tank can cause extra fuel to drain into the evap canister.
Can this also happen during "spirited" off road use?
My wife called BMW Customer service today, she spoke to "Richard".
She explained what happened on both her F650GS and F800GS,
she explained that the stalling problem had left her sitting in the road on an exit ramp,
she explained that for the first time in many years she was afraid to ride her bike in the rain, and
she explained that there several pages on f800riders.org forum detailing this problem, including several owners who have stated that they have reported it to BMW.
Richard said he would check and call her back, when he did he stated that "they have not heard of this problem".
"Took it in for the 600 miles and they said, "weird". They re-set the "adaptations" saying I probably messed them up when I rev'ed the engine to start it. I had to pay for this. "
What? Just unbelievable.
I'd like to know which area dealer this was. If you could PM or post that would be appreciated. Thanks.
Well, I'll see how they handle it when I take it in tomorrow, before I chuck them under the bus. I don't have an appointment, but I want to get it fixed and I'm just gonna leave it. It won't start in my garage right now, so we'll see.....
Just returned from a trip and had a couple of instances where my 800gs would surge as if it was running out of gas. The bike never completely stalled but the surging was very unnerving. Both instances were in heavy rain. We'll have to see if the dealer can find anything. These types of issues are a pain since they are difficult, if not impossible to recreate for the dealer.
BMW of SE Michigan arranged for Kathy's F800GS to be checked by BMW of Denver.
Before we arrived in Denver Richard from BMW NA called twice to see how the bike was running.
We arrived in Denver on Wednesday.
Eli Myrick (Master Technician) inspected the bike and immediatly commented that the vent tube from the charcoal cannister was lower than he would have expected and very close to the rear wheel.
He sprayed water into both intakes with the engine running - no problem - no stall.
He then put the vent tube into a container of water and continued to run the motor - within 2 minutes the motor stalled. - the exact same period of time that the engine stalled after we ran into rain. The charcaol container was full of water.
He rerouted the vent tube away from the spray from the rear wheel.
Since that time we have run into light to moderate rain - NO STALL - we can't be sure the problem has gone away until we run into heavy rain, but so far it looks good.
I had pretty much given up on BMW Dealers, they didn't seem to have any concept of customer service. It's time to eat my words.
BMW of SE Michigan, Owen B, John (Owner), and the sales staff could not have been more friendly and helpful when we were there. They have called several times to see how we are doing,
BMW of Denver are from the same mold, Rick Zimmerman (Service manager), Joe Francis (Service Advisor), Eli Myrick (Master Technician), and Chris (Sales) were all customer service oriented, the service was exceptional. They have also followed up to see if the rerouted vent tube fixed the problem.
We have another 2 days to get back to Florida, as soon as we get heavy rain I'll post a defintive result.
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Can you get some pictures online of how the re-routing looks like? Thanks!!!!
Will do, it will be early next week.
Just returned (3 hours ago) from a 3,400 mile trip that took me and my 2009 F800GS through many conditions at 45mph to 90 mph including: light rain, heavy rain, 35 degrees and heavy rain, 90 degrees and heavy rain, 35 degrees and light rain, 90 degrees and light rain. 35 degrees and dry, 90 degrees and dry. High altitude (Beartooth Pass, MT and Rocky Mountain National Park, CO) 11,700 ft. Low altitude Nebraska. Very humid central plains to very dry Wyoming, Utah and Colorado desert. No stalling. Not even a hiccup the entire 3,400 miles. Bike ran flawlessly. Fill with gas, lube the chain, check tire pressure, ride.
I believe my luck has to do with a previous post regarding the air filter seal, and that the reason I had no stalling is due to the fact that I'm running a K&N oiled air filer with the K&N sealing grease around the edges of the filter element. This is preventing any water penetration into the orifice that the previous poster mentioned.
I thought I'd post regarding this topic immediately, since I have had zero stalling. I absolutely love this bike. Nothing but positives to say about it. Tons of pulling power through the mountain passes. Tons of low rpm torque. While fully loaded, it's comfortable cruising at 80 mph or 45 mph on the tarmac, and it's very maneuverable on the forest service roads, jeep trails, and OHV trails. Very impressed.
Anyway, I shot 7 rolls of 35mm. As soon as I develop them I will post a trip report.
P.S. I feel it's important to mention that I've had the charcoal canister off and on. Didn't cause or solve any problems with it on or off. The only problem it caused when it was off is more pollution.
So, a little bit of an update.....
Had it towed (yeah BMW road side assist!) into the dealer, Lakewood BMW/Triumph, and they got it right in.
<p>They saw the problem straight away and basically don't know what is up. They have been calling into BMW NA and telling them the issues and they respond with what testes need to be done to figure out what the issues were. It has had 4 days of test and they still do not know why it stalls. Most likely something to do with fuel pressure, but they are not sure.
<p>So, it's a total bummer because it's summer time, beautiful in the Front Range and my wife and buddies are all riding and camping without me.
<p>At what point do I say enough is enough and ask for a different bike? It always makes me nervous when a bike that is so new has issues that no one can figure out.....