My F800gs STALLS LIKE ITS RUNNING OUT OF GAS! PLEASE HELP!!

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by chunter, Jan 3, 2009.

  1. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    Thanks Ender!

    The research paper was very interesting to me.

    As a clarification to others.

    I am in support of BMW hardening the fuel system if it can be done cost efficiently. But I am not in support of manufactures and consumers having to spend money simply because the USA has a stupid and corrupt government.

    Both when I worked for volvo and now working for BMW, fuel system damage is predominantly a USA thing. Both volvo and BMW have fewer fuel issues in brazil then the USA. Considering the alcohol content of brazillian fuel is far higher, this is clearly not a simple issue.

    It may be that byproducts from corn ethinol (USA) are more damaging then sugar cane ethinol (Brazil), but I suspect it is more of a lack of additives, quality control, regulatory inspection and enforcement.

    I am not apposed to ethinol, but am apposed to fuel that eats fuel systems that hold up fine nearly everywhere else in the world.

    This problem varies from state to state, station to station, and even tank to tank, and it should be fixed at the source in my opinnion.

    Once again, thanks Ender.
  2. EnderTheX

    EnderTheX Dirt Rider

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    You're welcome Joel :D I believe you pose another good question when you ponder the difference between the way the US and Brazil use ethanol. Sadly this is a question we may never resolve unless someone takes the companies behind this fiasco to court!

    Just like the research suggests, there are additives and coatings that can help our systems work with ethanol... Only problem is the gas companies don't seem to care to invest in these technologies! I will take it into my own hands to treat my vehicles and spread the word (even to my cager friends). I wouldn't wish fuel system problems on my worst enemy!
  3. Bicyclist

    Bicyclist Been here awhile

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    And speaking of your cager friends, BMW just recalled a bunch of cars for fuel pump problems.
  4. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I saw that as well.....and giggled.....:D:D

    :thumb:thumb

    Erling
  5. AMERUS

    AMERUS Traveler

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    I have had the stalling problems and they have become very bad, I was in brazil when I got my chain replaced under the recall and they wanted to replace the fuel pump, my bike is no longer under warranty and the extended warranty only covers Europe so I had to pay, they wanted $1,730 for the fuel pump and as I was not going to pay that, I waited till I was in Argentina

    The pump in Argentina cost $900 so I was going to get one shipped over from England for $350 but the dealer I was at removed the pump and found a replacement part from bosch for $250 fitted, so it's all fixed hopefully

    The actual fuel pump which was causing the problems is made by Bosch everything else on the fuel pump assembly was ok, BMW's replacement part has everything on it and so you are paying more to replace things that are fine

    Bosch part number for fuel pump : F 000 TE0 104 - 7ZB

    Pictures of the box and part number as well as the old fuel pump that was removed


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I will see if it works as I will be going into Uruguay and then to Buenos Aires so hopefully this has fixed the problem and will report back either way, I was also told by the dealer to only fill the fuel tank half full for a while, if you had the tool to remove the fuel pump you should be able to fix this problem quite cheaply, if it’s under warranty you just need to moan like hell at your dealer and don't accept them telling you that you have had bad fuel which 2 dealers told me, my bike is mapped for low grade fuel as I’ve been in Africa for a year so that argument doesn't work and if that is BMW's answer to your problems then the bike is not fit for its purpose.
  6. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    THANKS for posting that information!
    The part number seems to be just: F 000 TE0 104
    Maybe the suffix is a date code something...

    Alas, here in the USA I can not find a cross-reference to that part.
    I have called Bosch USA and they are going to research it and call me back. If the thing is not too expensive I'm going to buy one and put it in my bag before my next long ride :wink:

    I will post the result when I hear back from Bosch!

    Update: Bosch USA was unable to cross-reference the P/N. I've sent an e-mail to Bosch Germany.
    It appears to be a generic pump used mainly in small 4-cyl automotive applications ...
  7. dajg

    dajg dajg

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    i've clocked over 85,000km on the '08 f650 twin, and yes, it has been badly abused.

    i'm home now, and running on quality fuels...

    previously i had issues with fuel pumps re stalling.

    i've now got a brand spanking new fuel pump which i thought would solve my stalling problem. it hasn't.

    so - the bike is cutting out completely while idling, or after i pull the clutch coasting to the lights.

    i thought it might be the controller in the air box - i had a oiled air filter previously, which i suspected might have had too much residue and gummed up the electronics. however if this was the case, idling while stationary (holding the throttle at 1500 which i have to do now) wouldn't keep the bike running.

    any ideas? battery is new, and tried the other one too which was really ok... another story... so is the alternator, voltage regulator, fuel pump, air filter, spark plugs....

    thanks in advance.
    dave
  8. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Have you got the Latest firmware in the ECU?
    If not, can't hurt.... When my bike was new it acted as you say, but after a firmware update the problem went away ... that was 2 years ago...

    I don't know how hard a job it is to pull the injectors out and crank the bike over to observe the spray pattern? If one of the injectors were partly clogged it would show up the worst @ idle...
  9. dajg

    dajg dajg

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    yes latest software is installed.
  10. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    Hi dajg. When a stalling problem is not obvious, a methodical approach is warranted as you could skip from component to component for weeks and still not find the cause. This is especially true if you are unlucky enough for the problem to be caused by more then one component at the same time.

    Below is a methodical approach one could take without any special tools.

    1: Vacuum leaks will cause air to enter the engine that the DME is not aware of. As a precise air to fuel ratio is required, any air getting in that the DME is not aware of will cause the engine to run to lean and if bad enough, stall at idle. Remove the top and side covers.

    Look carefully at the rubber boots that go from the throttle bodies to the head, any cracks? If so, replace.

    Look at the hoses that hook up to the back of the air box. depending on country, there will either be 2 or 3 hoses here. the 2 hoses that come out the side of the T at the back of the air box and go to the throttle bodies are the idle air hoses. Are any collapsed or cracked? if so, replace.

    Next start the bike. if it will idle, idle the motor, if not, hold the throttle open just enough to where the motor wont stall. A simple squirt bottle that sprays a steady stream will work well for this. Spray a stream of water at where the rubber inductions meet the head in every angle you can, then where the induction tubes attach to throttle bodies. squeeze the tubes with your fingers, sometimes they split and it isn't visible to the naked eye. spray the idle bypass hoses and where they attach at both ends. Remove the 3rd hose that hooks to the air box T and cap the T. If there is a vacuum leak and u hit it with water, it will usually whistle and frequently the water entering the engine will cause rougher running or a stall lastly, spray where the idle control valve hooks up to the air box as that o-ring could have split. I use a garden hose for this check, but am careful to make certain there are no large leaks first because that could hydro lock the engine which could cause damage.

    No vacuum leaks? remove the air box T hoses at both ends, remove the air box. check by blowing through the hoses, are they clear or plugged? Attach one end to the throttle bodies, is the throttle body nipple clear? now hook up to the other end on the air box, remove the idle air valve, can you blow through to the idle air valve? Any plugging of the idle air valve or even partial restriction will cause stalling.

    Lastly, are the induction tubes and bypass hoses firm and in good shape? As rubber ages, it may collapse when hot. this causes stalling when the engine has warmed up, if any rubber has deteriorated, replace it.

    TO BE CONTINUED......... After a lunch ride :)
  11. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    Sorry, it was a long lunch ride, complete with 2 impressive off-road crashes.

    Continuing with induction and vacuum.......

    Look at the throttle bodies, spin the throttle to open them, any residue? Since your looking at them, clean them with some solvent such as carb cleaner and a rag. Just a small amount of build up here will cause the bike to stall, which is just one reason I am not a fan of high flow air filters, especially oiled gauze.

    Shine a light through the open throttle bodies, any build up on the intake valves? Get rid of it, but be cautious! Any fluid used here will end up in the combustion chamber, too much and your engine will make a bad noise that may cost $$$$$$$ to be repaired.

    P.S. How was that air cleaner? If it's horribly dirty, it can cause stalling, increased fuel usage, rich running, and carbon build-up.

    I really like paper filters though have no problem with a foam pre-filter, which can be cut to fit and glued to the top of the air filter.

    Paper filters absolutely CAN be cleaned with compressed air, or even just wacked on the ground to clear some pores in dusty conditions if needed. Replacement is better, but if your in conditions that would necessitate a new air filter each day....

    If using air or whacking. displace the dust in the opposite way it was inducted, and don't blow holes through the air cleaner :)

    The last piece of the induction system is the "Throttle Position Sensor" or "TPS"

    The TPS tells the brain "DME" as BMW now calls them or BMS as BMW used to call them, how far open the throttle is. This with engine speed is the most important sensors the DME uses to calculate how much air is entering the engine and hence, how much fuel to add to achieve the desired fuel ratio so things go bang rather then knock or " " (that represented silence).

    Substitution with a known good TPS is the best test, the bike wont run worth a crap without this sensor hooked up, and with it hooked up but sending erroneous signals, the entire realm of runnability is possible including not running at all. Stalls are possible, knocking, black smoke, anything.

    There is a way to test the TPS, but the results are ambiguous unless your using a dual channel oscilloscope. Further there is a range of right readings that are only right if a MOSS PC has been used to calibrate the DME to your particular TPS. Never the less, if it's in the ballpark, the worst that will happen is the bike won't run as well as it should and may stall at idle.

    For this reason, I carry a spare TPS when going far far from roadside service, it is one of only 2 sensors that will strand you that can't be bypassed.

    Someday I may post resistance figures, but I would need to look them up and make a video about how to do it. You will need a scope to check it with any surety, a multi meter will tell you if it is toast, but nothing in-between. If I ever have some free time again, I may make a video.

    End of all the parts of the induction system I can currently remember :)
  12. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Joel:

    Thanks again for your many contributions to the forum... :clap
    Awesome...
    I occasionally walk into a dealership and get to talking and mention something I learned from you and I get this look "Holy crap ... he's a wrench-god" I almost always give you and Gateway BMW credit!

    I gotta ask... so besides the TPS what's the OTHER sensor that will strand me ... the antenna ring, or is that a different rodeo? :lol3

    I hope to have a long trip coming up ... and am making my list and checking it thrice ...

    Thanks,
    Jim
  13. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    Thanks :) The antenna ring can be substituted with a couple loops of wire. The crank position sensor, or whatever BMW calls it, the bike absolutely can't run without that sensor, and it would be impossible to create one of those in the field.

    If time permits, I will get into fuel system tomorrow, thats where the fun starts :D
  14. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    :clap

    TIA for the fuel system run down...
    I'm still looking around for a "generic" replacement for the fuel pump...
  15. dajg

    dajg dajg

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    joel, you are an absolute champion.

    the bike started this particular stalling issue two minutes after i picked it up from its 80,000km service in brisbane australia... during the services the filter was changed from the oiled foam filter that had done 60,000km, to a new paper filter.

    i suggested to the mechanic (5 minutes after the 80,000km service) that maybe the hoses weren't connected right, but of course he believes that wouldn't be the case. So i'll check it tomorrow (saturday).

    JR W. Mate, i went into two shops in khartoum, which really is the a**hole of no-where. I found 3 pumps that suited my bike. the one i bought, and then rode 30,000km on, was out of a hyundai accent. no problems. 60 USD brand new. however, unlike the picture in the above post, there was no new hose with it, and i needed a cigarette lighter to heat & remove the plastic no-clamp hose from the old pump.

    unfortunately DHL temporarily misplaced the new 500 USD bosch pump i ordered from germany back in april '10 (they sent it to russia instead of sudan) so i didn't get this until 11 months later, when i made it home. i installed it to see if it fixed the stalling problem, but no luck.

    i'll post tomorrow & see if joels suggestions sort the problem. i was waiting for BMW to get a new fuel pump controller for a test but been waiting 2 weeks now...

    thanks again guys.
    dave
  16. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Dave:

    You can (so I am told) jumper around the fuel pump controller and just run the pump "wide-open"...

    I have seen several RTW tool kits with the harness connector set that would be required for this ... these are the notes I copied from some place:

    The color code on the wires may not be identical.... but having replaced the pump yourself you know which is which anyway ... :lol3

    Bypass fuel pump controller aka hotwire the fuel pump<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>
    You want to bypass the computer and controller for this test. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Terminal 1 of the fuel pump, which was hooked to a red wire from the fuel controller gets connected to a wire you run directly from battery positive. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Terminal 2 of the fuel pump, which was hooked to a brown wire from the fuel controller gets connected to a wire you run directly from battery negative. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    You can do this with the fuel pump still in the tank, or removed and well away from the tank. It won't hurt anything for the pump to run dry for 15 seconds. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    If this does not produce fuel pressure, try reversing the connections for a second to back the pump up, then run it forwards again. Do not run the pump backwards for more then a second and only then if it fails to run forwards. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    The important thing durring diagnosis is to methodically eleminate things as possible problems and to be absolutely certain about whatever you have eliminated. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    If the pump runs when hooked directly to the battery it may have been stuck, opperating but you didn't hear it, or the ecu, wiring, or fuel pump controller is bad. If the fuel pump does not operate when hooked directly to a working battery, the pump is bad or stuck.<o:p></o:p>
    Pic below is from 1200 but may be the same?<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    On the twins If you're going to make up an emergency hot wire, and you have a fused charger pigtail wired to the battery, you can make a simple extension to plug into the pigtail. Sockets from a Molex connector will work for the pump end if they're expanded slightly. The pin next to the squared off edge in the pump socket is positive. Pay attention to polarity and insulation.

    PS: If my bike ever blows up on me, I just hope I'm within towing distance of St. Louis
  17. Singletrack_mind

    Singletrack_mind Cave Man

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    OK, this is premature, BMW may come back and tell me something else is the problem*, but I'm pretty damn sure I just lost the second fuel pump on my bike. Symptoms are just like the first time: full tank, bike had been running perfectly before stopping, then on re-start it fired normally, ran 10-15 seconds, and died. Would not restart until I'd let it sit a few minutes, then it repeated the performance. Start, run, die.

    There are only two good things I can say about this. One is that I am still under warranty and therefore have the roadside assistance plan. All things considered, that aspect of BMW customer service worked admirably.

    The other thing I can say is thank goodness it happened near 'civilization'. I was on the last day of a multi day trip where we only came out of the desert once a day for food and fuel, so the odds of it happening in a place with amenities like an address and phone service were pretty low. Most of the hours of these days were were more or less on the back side of beyond.

    Stay tuned, I'll find out soon if it is indeed the pump again.

    *BMW says it's the pressure regulator, I'm not sure if that's the same as the "controller" that was replaced with the pump last year, but I will find out. Just waiting for BMW North America to OK the warranty fix now . . .

    Another update: The pressure regulator does seem to be the culprit, but BMW will replace everything: the regulator, the pump and the pump controller. The interesting news here is that the bike will run without the regulator. This means that if the same symptoms reoccur in the future, I will have something to try. With the regulator disconnected the pump just deliveres a fixed fuel pressure all the time. The bike will run rich, but it will get it's self home for a proper repair too.
  18. Singletrack_mind

    Singletrack_mind Cave Man

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    If your bike fires up normally, but then dies as though out of fuel 10 seconds later, try this: Behind the bodywork by your right knee is the fuel pressure sensor on the fuel rail. You will have to remove the faux tank skin to get at it. Un-plug the wires to it & try re-starting the bike. Surprisingly, the bike does not require this sensor to run. In normal operation, the sensor feeds readings to the pump controller and that in turn effects the pump. The controller aims for a predetermined fuel pressure relative to engine load, throttle position, etc.. When the sensor is faulty, it can send readings that cause the controller to shut off the pump. Take the sensor out of the loop, and the pump just runs, generating a fixed pressure. The bike will run a bit rich, but it should get you home. This is a really nice piece of info to tuck away for next time!


    OH, and my dealer is officially telling me to use 2oz of Techron every 1000 miles now to help preserve all the parts that have to live with ethanol & it's by products.
  19. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    For the 1200s someone has come up with a harness adapter that bypasses the fuel pump controller (that sits on top of the fuel pump) and just feeds battery voltage directly to the pump, basically running the pump wide-open all the time. Apparently this does not really damage the pump, but might shorten its life somewhat due to not getting to loaf any ... :lol3

    I did not think the twins had a pressure REGULATOR ... but I think there is a pressure SENSOR on the right side of the fuel rail. I think that is what you are talking about disconnecting? It is my understanding that if that sensor is disconnected that the bike will work its way around its loss, so that sounds like good troubleshooting, presumably if that sensor was saying the pressure was high then the computer would throttle back or turn off the fuel pump ... which would be bad... :lol3


    IIRC, Joel said the only two sensors that are absolutely required are the throttle position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor.
  20. Y E T I

    Y E T I Unpossible

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    Wish I had read this yesterday. :cry On my way into work today I stopped to fill up with gas (Shell 91). Got on the bike and rode to the street. While I was waiting for traffic to clear and about 10 seconds after I started the bike, it died. No warnings on the dash on anything. Just dead. It would crank and crank and crank, but would not fire.


    I would have tried your "fix" had I known of it. Instead I called roadside assistance and it's on its way to the dealer. Luckily, I was just a couple blocks from work and the guy dropped me off.


    I'll report back when I hear from the dealer what the problem is...


    Fwiw, I have been running Techron in my bike every few tanks.