My F800gs STALLS LIKE ITS RUNNING OUT OF GAS! PLEASE HELP!!

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by chunter, Jan 3, 2009.

  1. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer

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  2. DolphinJohn

    DolphinJohn Caveman

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    Griz, there seems to be a slight difference between the two threads about the hoses.
    10cup, in the F800riders.org thread, thinks the long line to the tank is an intake, and he put a small filter on it to keep dust/debris out.
    Crazy mike in his post here on ADV thinks that hose is the drain hose, and he left it hanging at the bottom of the bike.

    You seem to be pretty good at this kind of thing, and have all of the diagrams, so what say you?
  3. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer

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    I noticed this difference as well, and am a little stumped myself. The parts in question are #3 and #'s 18-24 in diagram below. On one hand, it makes sense that if the fuel pump is pumping fuel out then the tank would need to draw air in. Is that the spot though? But it would also make sense that it's a safety valve for the tank, in which any excess fual or gases would vent out there. The test would be to carfully check the valve (#21) to which way it flows.

    I'm leaning more towards the mentality that things go out through there. This would make sense in the canister design as well, since the canister needs to get the excess gases fed to it from the tank. This seems like the spot. I think I'm just going to let mine dangle, given the BMW parts diagram calls #21 a "Ventilation Valve."

    [​IMG]
  4. DolphinJohn

    DolphinJohn Caveman

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    Ok, now I'm more confused. Isn't #5 the valve? I don't get why they show the hose broken up in to several parts. the hose from the top of the canister goes back, unbroken to the rear #5 then a short hose from #5 in to the tank.
    The other hose from the top of the canister goes right across the bike to the "pressure switch" or whatever it's called. Another hose from that switch connects to a T which is one hose from each throttle body.
  5. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer

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    No, #5 is the screw. Look on the right hand side of the image. It has a key, showing #5 as being the screws that hold #3 (the Safety Valve) on. I myself am going to unhook the hose from the canister that goes to the back of the tank to the Safety Valve (#3) and let it dangle. Then I'm going to unhook the hose that goes from the canister to the "Pressure Switch" and put a rubber vacuum cap on the "Pressure Switch" inlet bung. Then I'm going to leave all of the hosing between the "Pressure Switch" and throttle bodies intact, including the T. No need to remove that stuff. It won't cause any harm, becase it's all after the "Pressure Switch" thingy. Then I'm going to remove that canister and call it good.
  6. DolphinJohn

    DolphinJohn Caveman

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    Ok, #3 not #5. Still wondering what #21 is. There is no break in that hose from the canister back to the valve/tank.


    Edit-- see the small in-line valve now over in the key, I must not have looked closely enough at the hose.

    hmmm.
  7. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer

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    #21 is the Venting Valve. On Japanese bikes they call it a "Purge Valve". This is how I know gases move outward from the tank at this location. The main thing you need to worry about is putting a rubber vacuum cap on the "Pressure Switch" inlet bung.
  8. chunter

    chunter Adventurer

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    Although I think the canister is unlikely to cause many problems (:hide ), you could just bypass it, plug it off, and leave it in place for now.
  9. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer

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    Hey Dolphin, did you actually remove your canister yet? If so, how did it go? Anything I need to know? I'm removing mine tonight.
  10. DolphinJohn

    DolphinJohn Caveman

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    No, didn't have time. I need daylight (no garage). I didn't want to start if I couldn't finish.
    Also, we are pretty limited down here on this small island, so I'm not sure where I will get the vacuum hose and plugs. We have a Home Depot, do you think they have it?

    If you do yours tonight, please take lots of pics as you go, if possible. And maybe show what you used to plug the hoses or bungs.
  11. sturgeon

    sturgeon Been here awhile

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    Wouldn't it be easier to just move to Canada? :lol3:lol3
  12. DolphinJohn

    DolphinJohn Caveman

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    Yah, don'tcha know.

    You ever had a stalling issue on your non-canistered F800???

    Ever ridden in really heavy downpours??

    You like gladiator movies??
  13. sturgeon

    sturgeon Been here awhile

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    Nope.

    Yep. Last weekend so heavy I couldn't see and had to pull off for a bit.

    Dunno, got any recommendations?
  14. DolphinJohn

    DolphinJohn Caveman

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    That was a quote from Airplane!. The pilot asking the little boy a bunch of creepy questions. Ever seen a grown man naked, Billy?

    I just thought of it because I was asking questions. I'm not right.
  15. sturgeon

    sturgeon Been here awhile

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    I guess I'm more into the Naked Gun series...

    "Nice beaver."
    "Thank you, I just had it stuffed."
  16. bxr140

    bxr140 Flame Bait

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    I know. I have a problem calling out people when they say foolish things. I'm working on it. You're not helping. :rofl

    FWIW, if you disconnect the hose from the gravity valve on the tank, you can...err...suck but not blow. I suspect the reason I couldn't [ahem] blow was becuase the solenoid to the intake was closed (the bike was off).

    Also FWIW, I disconnected the hose from the manifold to the solenoid not too long ago and just plugged the hose to close off the vacuum. Its ridiculously easy access. It seems to have cleared up the inconsistent throttle I was having, and it also seems to have softened up the "twitchy" throttle quite a bit, especially at slow speeds in 1st and 2nd. Possibly related (but possibly just cooincidence) I started the bike without the hose plugged out of curiosity, and the running condition seemed to be very similar to the poor running/stalling I had.

    I don't think there's a need to disconnect the hose from the gravity valve, and for the sake of diagnosing the problem (rather than stumbling upon a solutinon), I suggest just disconnecting one thing at a time.
  17. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer

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    Home Depot might have rubber vacuum caps. Not sure. I'm sure you could find something there that could do the trick of capping the vacuum bung.

    From what I understand, there is no need to plug the hose that goes all the way back to the back of the tank from the canister (#'s 8-9-10). The only thing that needs plugging is the vacuum inlet at the fuel tank breather valve (#4). This is due to the fact the the throttle bodies pull gases from the canister at this position to be burned off in the combustion chamber.

    [​IMG]
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  18. DolphinJohn

    DolphinJohn Caveman

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    My canister is gone. I'm sure it won't be long before it is tested, as the rainy season is here.
    I looked at my air filter and it really didn't look like it could have been saturated to the point of clogging. I could be wrong, but it looks pristine.

    We shall soon see.
  19. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer

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    Well, I had my charcoal canister off for 1 day, and I now have it back on. I can honestly say that I didn't experience any performance gain from removing it. The bike felt exactly the same regardless of whether it's on or off. The bike runs and idles exactly the same regardless of whether it's on or off. No stalling or stuttering either way. Upon very thorough hand-on inspection of the charcoal canister system, I have concluded that it would be extremely hard for it to be the cause of stalling. The system is fully sealed, so there would be absolutely without a doubt no way that rain would effect it. When I hear reports of canisters full of water, I have absolutely no idea how that could happen. The system is very simple. Here's how it works:

    In 1970 legislation was passed, prohibiting venting of gas tank fumes into the atmosphere. An evaporative control system was developed to eliminate this source of pollution. The function of the fuel evaporative control system is to trap and store evaporative emissions from the gas tank and carburetor. A charcoal canister is used to trap the fuel vapors. The fuel vapors adhere to the charcoal, until the engine is started, and engine vacuum can be used to draw the vapors into the engine, so that they can be burned along with the fuel/air mixture. This system requires the use of a sealed gas tank filler cap. This cap is so important to the operation of the system, that a test of the cap is now being integrated into many state emission inspection programs. Pre-1970 cars released fuel vapors into the atmosphere through the use of a vented gas cap. Today with the use of sealed caps, redesigned gas tanks are used. The tank has to have the space for the vapors to collect so that they can then be vented to the charcoal canister. A purge valve is used to control the vapor flow into the engine. The purge valve is operated by engine vacuum. The only problem with this system is that if the purge valve goes bad, the engine vacuum draws fuel directly into the intake system. This enriches the fuel mixture and will foul the spark plugs. Most charcoal canisters have a filter that should be replaced periodically.

    So even if that "purge valve" went bad, the only thing that would cause is it to run rich. But not completely die. And these charcoal canisters don't "clog" or "plug up". Even if it did "plug up", it would be exactly the same as if you remove it. Because when you remove it, you place vacuum caps at the carbs where the gases get sucked in from the canister and burned off. Effectively doing the same thing as if the canister plugged up.

    After my experience, I have a strong opinion that this system without a doubt has nothing to do with stalling. There was no difference with the thing on or off. Except that with it off it was purging gas onto the ground and in turn evaporating into atmosphere. Seriously, I'm not trying to be a hippe here, I just don't see how it could cause stalling and I didn't see any performance gains. The only thing I did see was pollution. I could actually smell the gas at stop lights and while it was parked in the garage, where as with it on I didn't. I'm keeping it on. My opinion is that this stalling business is from something else. But that's just me! :D I thought others may find my experience with this system beneficial. Good luck!
  20. Motoriley

    Motoriley Even my posing is virtual

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    Rode for 3 hours in the rain last week. 20 or so minutes were in the hardest downpour I've ever ridden in 20 years of motoing. 60-90 kms per hour for 20 minutes. Was too afraid to pull off the highway since I couldn't see and assumed no one else could either and would run me down. Fell in behind a car with his four ways on. Bike didn't miss a beat. Was at pretty constant throttle, 4000 rpm or so.