My next evil project.....

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by ebrabaek, Apr 20, 2012.

  1. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I am gathering the parts for the next project...... I had the first LV evo on the bike..... That was replaced with the evo2, which currently is on the bike. I liked it a whole lot more in the beginning....But the sound is annoying me more and more. I know that this is taste, and of course diff. people like diff. sounds. Never the less. The evo one sounded better with a less high pitch...more low rumble.....That was confirmed today while riding my friends 8gs, who I sold it to. On to of that... The cheesy plastic cheapo end cap is annoying me as well. The new evo2 is overall the same length as the evo.....overall that is... But what they did not tell you was that the core material has decreased about an inch and a half.....( down from 16 to 14.5 inches) and that is compensated for bu more " unmuffled pipe" The core is what dampens, or should I say muffles the sound....and with 1.5 inches less core..... less dampening. You can hear the difference without the potato installed... With it installed...the difference is less noticeable. I will keep the overall length the same......around 16 inches....but all core....and make an evil shape.....about 5 inches...rather than the 3.5X4.5 inch evo2. That is very little packing depth for such a big engine, and it is why it has such a sharp snap when you bleep the throttle. The pulses are simply too fast ....and several will run it with the potato in it, whereas if there were more core depth..... you would achieve a more attenuated sound. That said you properly have guessed that I will just make a muffler my self. I have core material left over from my last pipe build, and will just use that 2.25 inch perf. core to start with. I need to visit with the alchemist regarding the epoxy, and I want to go all out...or would like to by make the muffler to midpipe mating surface in all Carbon fiber rather than SS as I did last time. I have done this before.....and with good results..... but most importantly..... because I can. I would like to add a set of headers to the project... either arrow....or remus..... So you guys that have done that.... where did you get yours from????? Until then...:thumb:thumb

    Erling

    For this project I used the following products....:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN...247?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483836807f

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN...742?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4843640166

    http://stores.ebay.com/Polymer-Prod...b=3115781&_sid=61010028&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

    http://uscomposites.com/shortroll.html ( 5.7 oz....3K twill)

    http://uscomposites.com/carbonpage.html ( 1 inch wide carbon fiber tape on the bottom of the page)

    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...ngId=-1&keyword=insulation+foam&storeId=10051

    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...Id=-1&keyword=contact+adheasive&storeId=10051


    Brushes.....nitrile gloves....plastic cups..... aluminum foil.... electrical tape.....aluminum tape.....stirsticks..... Plastic to cover the table with. Heat lamps....toaster oven to cure the epoxy with.....
    #1
  2. señormoto

    señormoto Supermoto Abuser

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    I have arrow headers on mine. Can't speak for the other makers but, as you probably know, Arrow makes world class stuff. Super clean welds, proper bend radiuses, etc etc. They mate up to any standard F8 exhaust diameter as well, so there's no issue with fitting other brands of mufflers.

    Your project sounds awesome, as usual with all of your designs... can't wait to see the finished product! I've done some exhaust work myself but never made my own from scratch. When you write this up maybe you can log the dimensions involved or post a solidworks file?

    edit: given the large amount of parts you've made for your bike.. have you considered putting together CAD projects so that you can have someone else make them in bulk and then sell them? definitely a lot of readers here would buy your stuff - could be a fun side project to pad out the retirement account and you wouldn't even have to lay the fiber if you provided the CAD docs to a pressure moulder or oil moulding carbon shop.
    #2
  3. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Thanks.....:thumb. I have thought about it....many times... But as I am clueless to the CAD world....well at least somewhat... I have not giving it much. I seems to be left the old school design..... ( measure with a micrometer...mark it with a grease pen....chop it with an axe).... sort of...sometimes it feels like...:D:lol3. Seriously I am inching ever so closer, as I have started producing header heat shields, and exhaust end caps for a great Socal exhaust maker. I use his system on my smaller enduro....except it was too loud and I wanted to see if I could tame the DB's without a sacrifice in performance...... third time was a charm. That is what I intend to do here as well. Don' t get me wrong.... There are many good pipes for the 8GS.... I just think I can make'em better. With that single item.... I can spend what ever time to make it just as I want it. A few things here.... Noise... I don't particular like a pipe you have to wear earplugs for. That was what got the other pipe. It was SAE'ing 108db.... Just what the doctor ordered when you race on a mx....or SM track.... but not when going of trailside. So I found that it really does not matter what you do outside of the core....as long as you keep the core dimensions the same. I learned many things in producing the pipe for the big single.... and I want to apply this in this new pipe design. But I always laugh when I read the tiresome pr proppo from the pipe manufactures.." spend so many hours r/d'ing this pipe".... You'd be surprised how easy it is....following a few guidelines. When I got the new evo2...it gave it away....with the shorter core....and the changing sound. I spoke with them ( LV)...but after I guess too many Q's.... They did not take it good regarding my correspondence. So this will be 15-16 inches....long core....2.25 inch diameter..... about 5 by perhaps 5.5 inch ...maybe octagonal... Only thing I have not solves is the midpipe to muffler.... I would like to make it of full CF.....and I have epoxy good to 450 deg. F..... But will need to measure...just to make sure. Thanks for the arrow header.... I believe they can be had for around $400....and it will be a nice addition to the system. As far as setting up production.... I think I would need to find the right person who could work the CAD.....then a reputable shop who could produce it. There are so much crap CF parts produced...... Most people don't care.....but just go look at pipes from big names.......after a few years i the sun...or heat exposure..... Not always good. I guess This is where it begins..... I will start with the plug....as I so many times do..... and go from there. If the epoxy gets the blessing from the alchemist.... This should be as light as the other CF pipes on the market....but quieter....with a less high snap.....deeper...lower growl...... This is going to be interesting......:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #3
  4. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    So I had a talk with the alchemist making the epoxy's, that I use... and he verified that it's a go for the all composite pipe.... So in summery..... I will use the LV pipe from the mid pipe.....to the muffler.... but then it will be all CF from that pipe.....and through out...with the exception of the perforated core. The whole end cap including the center pipe will be CF..... It might actually be lighter than the evo2....even though it will be bigger...... Off to the HWS to get the foam..... Onward.....:D:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #4
  5. señormoto

    señormoto Supermoto Abuser

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    I'm excited... can't wait to see what you come up with. Maybe some prelim drawings you could share before you start laying fiber?
    #5
  6. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Better yet...... I will make a few foam plugs.... Since I have 3 styles in mind..... I would like to share them....and see which one takes the cake here on the forum.....:ear..... The exiting part is the all epoxy silencer....with the exception of the core.....glass dampening material..... and hardware..... Specially the all carbon end cap. The exit pipe and bulkhead....is normally made from steel or alloy. And in reality...the carbon is really bling.... meaning it is not really serving to it's true potential...as the inert's are heavy. Last project I started.... It was almost a 1 to 3... Have a look..... Aluminum cone to be copied for MRD exhausts in socal.......
    [​IMG]


    Prototype CF cone......note the final product comes in at 23 grams......
    [​IMG]

    So that matches the average rule that the weight savings over aluminum are about 33%, but alot stronger..... and I would be willing to put the same weight savings at 10-15% for non stryctural members...and 25% for structural members...in a stainless vs Carbon matrix. That said.... lot's of projects I do....is sort of a challenge..... as many say....it cannot be done..... I usually win most of those ones....:lol3:lol3...... This one is mostly for the sound, as I am not happy with the EVO2 on there...... if I can shave a pound of.....even better...... Stay tuned..... I wish I could change the thread title though...... to incorporate the CF can build.... Ohh welll.......:freaky:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #6
  7. Koby

    Koby Rennfahrer

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  8. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Well... That would be fine too.... But I am seeking quietness...., and personally I think that pipe is too freeflowing for the 8GS..... But what matters...is that you are happy with it..... Does look snazzy.....:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #8
  9. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    So when at all possible.... specially since I design my pieces.....while at rest.....in the cockpit....etc..... ha-ha....go figure...I don't have drawings..... I try to make a design concept. Just to see if what I had in mind....is gonna work. Here is a rough shape. Mind you....this unit is about 2 inches shorter than the final piece.... But it illustrates the basic octogonal shape I have in mind. Again.... This is a shape I like....and I'm sure many of you will spit out the coffee... Here it is....
    <a href="%3Ciframe%20width=" 560"="" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1bU8Y1jiyYk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="">">

    <a href="%3Ciframe%20width=" 560"="" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1bU8Y1jiyYk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""><iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1bU8Y1jiyYk" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

    :thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #9
  10. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    So because of my welded rear rack....and the general confined space back there.... It is a challenge to make a pipe big enough to fit..... because I do not want a clunker looking one like the stock..... So it will match the tank....which is one evil looking pile of plastic.....:lol3... But slowly shaping the foam plug..... And that is the beauty of Carbon Fiber.... You don't have to have straight edges, and lines...... I think this will look great......:freaky

    :thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #10
  11. BMW_BIKER_KEITH

    BMW_BIKER_KEITH Been here awhile

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    LOVe te shape !

    #11
  12. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Thanks Keith.....
    A minor setback..... and it is just that.... Rather than keep hacking on the muffler shape..... I decided to re make the two left rack mounts...... to suit the wider muffler better.... So today will be SS welding....Ohhhh dear......:freaky

    :thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #12
  13. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Much better.......
    [​IMG]

    Now onward with the pipe..... I gotta make a new plug since the other one started to look like the gas tank.....:D

    :thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #13
  14. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    So the new plug is created....... and proper fitment is checked. Note that the Carbon fiber will be laid on the outside...and thus 4 layers will yield a thickness of 1.5mm....thereabout.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Then the next step really depends on you and your preference.... But I like to build a small "lathe" to ease the layup process....
    [​IMG]

    Here is the evo2..... or second gen LV pipe... quite small at 14.25 inches long by 4 wide..by 4.5 inches tall..... No wonder it's so snappy....:D 4 inch is about where mx cans hang around..... I will say this... that the fact it is this quiet at such small dimensions, is quite encouraging. So I ran the motor.... pipe'less....and It was really surprised how the parallel pulses canceled each other out. So this will be much ....ummmmmm.. should be much easier than the big bore thumper project.....
    [​IMG]

    The new Brabaek special pipe is 16 inches long.... 5 wide....and 5.5 tall.... an overall gain of about 1 inch in diameter...then 1.75 inches longer.
    Tomorrow..... Carbon fiber layup.....da-da-daaaahhhhh......:freaky:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #14
  15. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    So a few words on tomorrows project. The muffler's outer shell's temperature will be in the sub 200.F. and thus most high quality epoxys with minimal post heat cure will be fine..... But you need to check with your vendor....explain what you are making, and if it is a good vendor they will be happy to recommend the right epoxy for you. The intake and exit pipes is another matter. Temps here will be in the 300-350 deg. F. so special attention is needed here, as most epoxy's will turn into a wet noodle at those temps. The epoxy's that I use...are many...but for this I will use the HTE from Polymer Composites in Ontario,CA ....

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN...&otn=3&po=LVI&ps=63&clkid=7982395698360415399

    That said... Tomorrow the layup will begin on the shell. I did not have to use a post cure epoxy here.... but it is tremendously strong as well.... and holds up to 450 under stress....and 600 F static.... Very good stuff.....:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #15
  16. L.B.S.

    L.B.S. Long timer

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    Thanks for all your great posts, ebrabaek :clap


    May I ask a slightly hi-jacking question? (but sorta kinda on topic still :D )

    Do you have a suggestion for any high-heat clear coat applications for carbon fibre?

    My once shiny Giannelli CF muffler is looking rather dull and tired after several years of wear and tear. Any way to make her all pretty again?

    cheers :freaky
    #16
  17. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Absolutely......:thumb
    As far as your muffler...... Do this....ride it...then idle it for a few minutes...to ensure max heat is going through the muffler..... then shoot it with an infrared thermometer. It is pretty accurate with CF.... if you see under 250 deg.F. use the 1618 from Polymer composites. It is the epoxy I use for about 80% of my projects...... Thin flowing....uv property's....just fantastic. I think you will see in the sub 200.F. but yet again..... I don't know all the pipes out there...better be safe.....

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN...700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4843191d5c

    When you get it... Post it in my other thread.....

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603891&page=9

    I will help you and show you how.....:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #17
  18. L.B.S.

    L.B.S. Long timer

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    Awesome! I'll check that out :D

    Thanks again :1drink
    #18
  19. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    You could ...of course just make it from a pipe of aluminum.... But that'l take all the fun away.....:D.... So first...clean the work station of all the debris left over from the foam cutting.....etc. Then measure each turn ( circumference) and multiply it with the amount of layers you deem necessary. In my case.... 4 layers of 5.7 oz ( 3K) twill is plenty. so 18 times 4 is 72....by 18 inches wide ( 1 inch overlap on each end). Roll the fabric up neatly to be ready to be applied. Be ready to needing to cut the fabric on each turn with the indentations I made..... Otherwhy the fabric will flip flop and make folds. Then on to the resin. The cut fabric weighs in at 180 grams....so to comply with the 1 to 3 ratio ( one resin....3 fiber) I will need 90 grams of epoxy...... I will mix 100 just to be safe. Bigger projects I tend to use a foam roller....as seen on the left. This way you can easy manage the resin....and be quick about it. I also added one layer of release agent. It is not a necessity, but it does seal the pores somewhat....and makes the appearance looking better..... Just for the gremlins living inside the pipe.....:lol3
    [​IMG]

    Layup time.....:freaky:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #19
  20. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Phewwwwww..... I deserve an extra shot of espresso. I managed to lay up all four layers with out cutting anywhere. That might not seems like much.... But trust me it is. You see... once the contour changes like the two small flat spots on the plug... they compound them self and you can have a hand full if not careful. The trick here is to first use a brush to lay up epoxy on the plug.....nice and thick.... Or at least thicker than the roller... That way it will hang on... then you just roll the plug.....like your wrapping a Christmas present.....:D Using the roller to roll the fabric on....then saturating the top ready for the next layer...... Note the electrical tape..... Due to said fabric stressing.... it tends to relax...sort of like a wet noodle...... Little trick I found it to have a strip of tape in the ends....... to lock up the stress in the fabric. Careful though.....because of too much, and you are now pulling on it....and you will cause more harm than good. VERY....LITTLE.... TENSION here. Just enough to lock the fabric. But it works very nice.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    This will now room temp cure for 2 hrs.... to turn into flypaper...tacky.... Then I wanted to set it out in the sun.... But the desert southwest are expecting 50 mph dust storm..... So a careful step with the heat lamps are in order.... at then 100....then 150....then 200....etc F. that is. :freaky:freaky
    Starting to look like a muffler ehhhhh.....:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #20