Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Sports' started by vettex2, Feb 16, 2013.
If you don't like it, vote with your feet. Move on.
You're not allowed to make any changes to an F1 engine without prior approval from the FIA.
Context, you snipped the next part.
The current engines rules have been in place for a few years.
The FIA is extremely strict on engine changes. They grant permission with the greatest of reluctance and amid much complaining from the engine manufacturers who are not permitted to make changes.
F1 isn't cranking down. They have been cranked down. For quite a while now.
I've never , ever heard of an engine builder for race engines that DIDN"T weigh the rods and pistons.
Something is fishy.....
Todays NASCAR word , from Denny Hamlin , is "observating"
they really don't help the image by butchering the English language.
I do also have to say , he was kinda slurring his words , especially during the press conference . Maybe he was on pain pills.
Exactly...even builders of Saturday night engines do that. A guy doing it in his shop, OK, I can see that slip up. Not a pro builder.
Guys big engine shops dont work that way. Even small engine shops like RCR (before they merged and became ECR) didnt work that way and they had only 30 employees in the engine shop.
RCR had only four engine builders out of the 30 that worked in that shop. RCRs engine shop had its own building and no part manufacturing took place in that building. Each engine builder had his own U shape cell lined with Snap-On benches and cabinets that were all custom. It was very nice and a great work environment. Before the engine builder sees the parts they have gone through many steps.
First; the parts are received and checked against the po & shipper, whether they come from across the street from RCRs CNC center or from across the country.
Second; incoming inspection. All top flight equipment, CMM, optical, pin & ring gauges, scales , spring load tester, hydraulic leak down testers, laser micrometers
. Well over a million dollars worth of equipment.
Thrid; all parts are marked and cataloged. Identification marks for inventory control, some marks that were required by Nascar and some were simply for aesthetics. Even the marks had engineering call-outs, where, how big, depth of mark, fonts and wear tests. Some marks had to be surface marks that had stricter call-outs than stainless surgical instruments that have to go through an autoclave. This is where I came in, I worked for a small manufacture of fiber-optic lasers for direct part marking. No expense was spared here, all the equipment was high production based even though they were only mark at a time.
Fourth; the parts are pulled. This is done by one person, one engine at a time. This guy has the work ethic of a CPA and every part is recorded. Every engine has its own cart and every part has its own place on the cart. If a part is missing or misplaced it is very evident. The engine is given a # at this time and is wheeled in room that just had the completed carts and the room was locked. It was common to have 30 engine carts in there ready to be built.
Fifth; the engine builder is given a work order to build engine X. They only build one engine at a time and there is no mixing & matching at this point. At that time, RCR had 2 Cup engine builders and 2 Nationwide builders. They did not intermix. One guy builds the engine. This was not an area where employees hung out, it was more like an office.
Forth; dyno & crated. Very few people were privy to this area when they were working and testing results were very secret. RCR had four dynos including a chassis dyno and one that could duplicate engine telemetry of any track (rpms, how long and how much they are in the gas, shift points)
Now take all this multiply till you get to 3-400 employees and you have a Roush Fenway, TRD engine shops.
If you want to cheat with an engine part, it has to be one of the great conspiracies with many people being tight lipped.
Chances are some 25 year old in incoming inspection will be given his walking papers.
Over the years, I have worked for 3 manufactures who supply to race engine - machine shops. Thankfully I dont have to go to PRI anymore.
are you trying to say they don't weigh the rods?
I guarantee Roush does.
I know a person working in their ENGINE shop
and that is complete BS
Now getting away with it is another matter completely
Reading is really hard for you.
You do say they use multi-million dollar standard and gauge equipment. Being a personal acquaintance of the fellow who invented (at least he told me he did, and others confirmed same) the optical comparator, I know how proud he was of the precision of this invention. While it was initially designed for the most precise guidance system precision parameters, I do business with many small micro precision CNC shops that have their own, much less expensive version, but still pretty cool. So if they have all the equipment, such a mistake should not happen. Are we to believe from your grin that they are using a $29 postal scale for weight measurement that may have a variance? They do not have a carefully calibrated scale with all the money at stake in that sport?
Are you trying to tell us that these builders are not using the same identical spec parts in each engine? I have to be careful here, but I know a builder that plows through part, after part, after part for stock engine classes to be sure he has a balanced build and the part is to his optimum specs for each part. (As you rightly said before, there is a tolerance range for most things in the real world. go or no go) And he kicks ass and passes tech. His methodology has been proven for years. And his mod engines are just as carefully matched as well. With hours of basically artistic work to do so. Is it a way to get rich? Nope, but if you love what you do and gain satisfaction from it.; all is good.
Now do you want us to believe that with all the money in NASCAR it is a random pick and pull for those engine builds? It could happen to anyone and is inconsequential? What exactly are you trying to say? Why haven't more teams been gigged for this as the post race teardowns are pretty systemic.
I read it all and do not disagree with your process, I know several builders who use the cart just as you describe. Some with cutouts so every part, nut, stud, fastener etc. is accounted for and taken in order off the cart. Which means there is no excuse for an error of this nature. The part should have been rejected in step two. I would agree with you that 3 grams (or whatever it ended up being) probably did not make any significant performance gain on first blush, but it may have as I did not stay at Holiday Inn Express recently. That multi million dollar dyno room and post station may say different. It is a spec class with minimum weights and cross weight specs, so it was not the kind of savings worth much in that category. A good long fart by the driver, if your name was Spencer, could accomplish the same. It probably was a mistake, just as I believe Carl Longs issue was an honest mistake as a P & R team. What would be the point of extended displacement, getting to park quicker? The rules are very clear, parts are approved for use in exacting specs with little or no deviation unless specified in the rules(your markings system). In both cases, it was probably a mistake; the stakes are high for that and everyone knows it already. With the exception of maybe you not wanting to accept that fact.
If you think that winning top engine builders in small shops do not take the same care...well that is just nutty talk. They check things two and three times. Because to be continually successful, your stuff needs to be reliable and up front. There are some pretty talented and smart guys in two to ten man shops, and they are not messing around with shoddy work habits. Their build rooms are not like an office, they are like an operating room. No one but the builder allowed. Not even a laughing gas guy. Are there some big names building crap and getting away with it? Yes, there are, and it always amazes me when guys go back for more. I want to tap on their head and see if there really is an echo. I guess it is cool to have their name on your engine cowl so everyone knows you are loaded with cash. I'd rather "just win baby, win."
Well, it looks like TRD will be firing someone in receiving & someone in incoming inspection;
Again, suspending Ratcliff is bullshit. Just making noise and giving the talking heads something to talk about.
Assess big fines to Joe Gribbs Racing not to one person. If I was Pemberton & crew I would have fined them at least the amount of the winnings, Gibbs can pass that on to TRD. In this case, I would not have taken away points, but if there would have been any advantage I would say that the 50 points would have been just.
I will reply to your post Shrine, just want to finish reading last night's recaps.
Plenty of that going on right here.
First, let me give you an open invitation to visit where I work anytime you are coming through Kansas. This is an sincere offer with no double meaning. It is an interesting shop and I'm very proud of the work that we do. I give tours all the time and take people riding in the unique country that I live in. We do have to drive 100 miles for a good dinner.
Not at all what I was saying. As I said, at RCR all the equipment was top flight. I have not been to TRD, but I find it hard to believe that TRD being so much larger than the old RCR engine shop would not have equal or greater equipment than RCR. The grin is from all this crap could have been stopped with a relatively simple piece of equipment that does not take extensive training to operate.
Not at all random pick & pull. Like I said, the person at RCR that pulled parts had the work ethic of a CPA. But that person is relying on receiving and incoming inspection cataloging the parts correctly. Now it appears that TRD receiving department should have rejected the part and incoming inspection should have caught it in their procedures.
The stakes are high, but making the teams accountable for the sloppy actions
of what is developing into captive engine shops is crap.
That is like making a weekly racer accountable who is using an GM crate engine for a mistake GM made. By the way, the tamper resistant bolts on GM crate engines use to be lasered by yours truly.
I have no idea where that came from. That is just opposite of how I feel. My experiences at the old RCR engine shop was completely different than at Roush - Fenway. At RCR, those guys were racers wanting to win, at Roush - Fenway many of the people that I had contact with were just one of 400 employees doing their job and getting a check. The Roush - Fenway shop was (is?) in a industrial complex 50 miles from Roush raceing. RCR's old engine shop was part of the RCR "campus" in Welcome.
I keep on saying Roush - Fenway when i should be saying Roush - Yates. The last time I was there was in 2007 and Fenway still had his name on the building.
We knew what you meant.
Ok, it seems we are on the same page at least. I understand the sense of fair play you are using, but it is not currently feasible. Someone has to be accountable, and since the team owner is the only one accountable to NASCAR, that is where the sanctions will have to go. I agree that captive engine builders should be responsible, but there is no way to en-forcibly do that. I would imagine that TRD has long ago offered to cover Joe's expenses and losses for this oversight, so in a sense they are being penalized too. They are just not losing points. Lot's of people break the law, we just don't know about it until someone gets caught.
The crew chiefs all know they are the last man standing, even though it would be impossible for them to personally inspect every single part used in a chassis and drivetrain in a fleet of 17 or more race cars that some of them have. It has always been that way. Part of the deal as they often say. It is not logically fair, but it is the system they work in. The harsh penalties are to try and keep people from being too ingenuous. The days of Smokey are long over and is why there are so many competitive cars in the field now. My favorite driver of all time could never accomplish what he did in this arena, and they did that on purpose to keep it from being a one or two or three man show again. Victims of a successful plan I guess you could call it. But they are sticking to it. Besides, with the communications availability they have today, most of these crew chiefs can be there without being there. Unless the computer crashes....
I would love to see your shop when I next get to Kansas. Wont' be this year, but probably next. Seeing how it is done is always fun! If you get out East, I have a friend who makes very sensitive micro pieces for devices used to measure seismic change. It is fascinating to watch his guys work on things with a machine, so small and precise, I cannot see it without an aid. They take care of their tools better than a neurosurgeon, I am guessing. Amazing things that people can do.
'splain where you wrote the rods wee individually weighed
or was it just implied?
Just got an email yesterday hawking the V8 supercars in less than three weeks at Austin. They have been busy, keeping the place busy.
"You don't want to say, 'No big deal,' because it is a big deal," Labonte said. "But you can't make a big deal of it, either. At the end of the day, it's really not that big of a deal. Does that make sense?"
So I was looking through some old stuff in my closet, and I have quite a few programs, autographs, stickers, and other stuff from frequenting Nascar events with my dad in the 70's - 80's. This was the Earnhart Sr., Bobby Allison, Darell Watrip, etc. era.
Any value to this stuff? How best to realize it?
Depends what it is, value will be greater in a stronger economy. Yeah, I know what you are thinking.....I agree, hold on to it for several more years. eBay will be your friend....especially the Big E stuff.