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Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by crankshaft, Sep 6, 2011.
Great post Nippy! I guess I am in the clear because I am running the Vortex ECU and I have the Cycleworks pump.
I had my 2009 690r quit on me twice. Once when it was very new. I never knew for sure why it quit but I got it to restart after some time and made it home. I did the 15 minute reset and all was good for a couple of years. The second time it started losing power on the highway and finally just quit. I got it going twice and had it die again twice. Wiggling the wiring under the air box and behind the rad seemed to make a difference and tightening the blade connectors to the coil seemed to fix the problem. Eventually I went to the Cycleworks pump and the Vortex CPU and that aftermarket voltage regulator and no problems. I never saw any dirt in any screens for the pump and the post pump filter inside the tank looked like yours. I doubt my stock pump was ever the problem. I still wonder how the Cycleworks pump is better than the stock one but never got any clear explanation from California Cycleworks about that.
Anyway thanks again for your post!
Thanks. I ran with the assumption that it was that simple and did the 15 minute idle this morning. Then I went and got my bike tangled up in network of downed timber and thick wooded singletrack (and no-track). It got hot enough for long enough that it should have been worse than the conditions that caused it to stall before. Flawless! So maybe a cheap, easy fix?
This is exactly what E. Engineer Dave said last night as we composed the message. In fact, he went so far as to say he thought he could do it. Now, exuberance aside, he may be able to or not. I will speak to him and give him some words of encouragement. I just keep remembering my conversations with the cable company where 95% of their advice consisted of unplugging the damn box or hitting the reset button. I have a Denon AV receiver (which is a bit pricey) and when it acted funny the technical folks would say, "lets do a hard reset". Just last week two of icons on the desktop of my iMac disappeared. I called AppleCare and the tech said, "lets do a hard reset" which entailed unplugging everything from the back of the computer. Presto, the icons returned upon powering back up. Things electrical, don't you just love them? Not!
I think Dave is now invested in trying to find a solution to this problem and I will report back on my discussions with him.
Thanks for your input. I do hope that we can get to a solution to this continuing problem, not the stalling problem, but the stalling and then re-start problem, which is very expensive to fix if you replace your pump.
Another comment on what you said. Both Dave and I looked for a thermal thyristor (I believe they look like a small metal strip) somewhere on the outside or inside of the metal pump housing. Had we found one there then we could perhaps point to that malfunctioning, i.e., saying the pump was overheating when it wasn't. We did not find one.
There's an interesting question...do we know of anyone with the Vortex that has had a pump failure or the stalling symptoms...? If not, how does the Vortex handle the pump vs the stock ECU?
Whether or not that is the fix, it's refreshing to read a quality analysis of a problem!!!
Thank you for your time and effort!
Great post Nippy, you've confirmed what I've always suspected. I also replaced the pump after the usual 10 minute cool down period but it didn't fix the problem. When mine died, I had a volt meter checking the voltage and when the 690 died, the voltage dropped to zero and then came back seconds later. I'm wondering if there is some voltage issue, causing the ECU to shut down and then reset? I know it probably has a minimum voltage that it needs to run and maybe it has an internal circuit breaker for the ECU power? The Vortex solved the problem actually, it never died like that again. Must be ECU related.
I have a 690 ECU to donate to the cause if you want to tear into it?
You are welcome. I hope that Dave and I come up with more answers and hopefully a fix that works.
Ok just spoke to Vortex there is a thermal over load in the vortex ecu but he can't remember if there is paramiteters on the stock but certain there is , he has experienced the pump issue on a berg while out riding with three other EFI gurus
So the pump may look tiptop the field or armature winding must be braking down underload , kind of hard to replicate with engine vibs fuel , temp
Thank you Crank. I think you are right and I hope that we can get to the bottom of the problem and then let everyone know. I will take you up on your offer for the ECU and send you my contact information by PM.
Thanks for the info. Not so sure about the theory of the armature breaking down under load. If you are right about this then all of us who have bought new pumps did the right thing. If not, then we are still looking for answers.
When my bike died the first time I had been almost idling along in 5th gear on a small paved road going downhill headed towards a lake. I had not been running it hard at all as I was doing some recon in an area where we will go looking for old gold mines off-road. I had not even gotten to one of the off-road areas. When I arrived at a Forest Service Ranger Station and shut the bike off to pay an entry fee it would not restart. Subsequently, when I got it restarted, I ran the living shit out of it trying to get home before catastrophic failure, which I expected. I hit the slab and rode the bike at 85 to 90 mph passing people going uphill and downhill for 60+ miles. This was screaming the motor a bit as I have 14/45 gearing. I then ran it hard through the gears when I hit a few stoplights in the city. Then it died while idling at an intersection about 3 miles from my home. Ten minute wait and then it started and ran fine again. The tech at Carter Powersports road it 20 miles and then it died and subsequently restarted. He reported that when running it performed great. Very similar to what a lot of riders here have reported.
Still searching for answers.
Hmm fuel reg over heating / causing combo of both ??? Just throwing it out there , any way new pump seems to fix it .
I just may go one of cranks looms for racing.
Dave and I just spoke and he confirmed what I thought which is that the armature is turning at one speed. Power goes to the pump through the brushes and then to the commutator which causes the armature to rotate thereby driving the pump. Given this, it is not like the armature has to struggle to deal with various loads, it simply turns at a consistent speed. We are studying the pressure regulator which we believe has a mechanical mechanism and is connected to the ECU so that the ECU can see if it is regulating pressure, however the ECU does not provide power to it. More to come on this.
While my new pump has seemingly fixed the problem it may occur again. As you know, a number of posters here have had multiple pumps, which is frightening as you don't know if you can trust your ride off-road, it is damn expensive, and it shouldn't be happening. I had a 2005 BMW GS (FI with a submersible pump and filter) and I put about 28,000 miles on it without even the hint of a problem. I am hopeful that we find something other than the pump as the cause of the problem.
i know of some pump failures that were for sure pump failures.....not enough pressure and volume... some were due to manufacturing defect where the pump housing was too tight when the pump gets warm it binds.... some were brushes coming apart.
some were due to the pump coming disconnected from the housing and kinking the fuel line. some the wires came off the pump.
all of those were failures that could be explained and we sorted through them and got to the root cause.
Stalling...... can be caused by many different things including improper tps setting, dirty injector ( just a little dirty and it will still run wide open) but no idle, fouled plug or cap issue ( both times I had a bad plug i could not tell by looking at it it was fouled)
cutting out....this is one that is really causing me to go round and round.....bike will run and then just quit at speed but will re start, sometimes with the kill switch cycled and sometimes just starts back up. one time it was the master relay for me....it would let the starter start but would not turn on something else.
it seems from all of my experiences, more than one condition exists and the bike wont run. I also think the 2 ecu's dont talk to each other that well. they also often get into a locked state and need to be reset. voltage sensitive? yes I think so and it only takes a very small fluctuation to make a problem.maybe slightly under voltaged for the computer needs.
ready for my last issue? we had one 690 die and we could not repair it...he went home in the wifes truck after she drove 500 miles to get him.... the rest of us got so far behind we decided to hiway it home...... 85 miles in one strech at a constant throttle, no stops no slowdowns and when I back off the throttle it sputters and dies, wont start and I have to cycle the kill switch a few times and do a roll throttle to wfo and back then shut it off a and then it runs. over the next 400 miles it got worst if I stayed steady on the throttle. if I was on and off speeding up and down the problem didnt show up. it barley ran when I came into my driveway, poping surging and almost dying. next morning I did a 15 minute reset and it has been great ever since.
70* husaberg and new KTM use the same pumps ,regulators and injector. they dont have nearly the issues the 690 has. they dont have as many safety sensors and they dont have fly by wire and only one ecu and no canbus system. there wire loom is much simpler and they have less connectors
to summarize my
FI is here to stay
this bike is great when it works right
it is not all the hardware that is the problem and think some of the system has weak points or not needed.
I will figure it out with help and make it dependable......the only weak points now are in the fuel management system
I have a 2012 690R with around 1700miles on it. Just yesterday I took it out for about a 200 mile spin and noticed right away it was blowing a fine black soot all over my lower right leg. I've never noticed it before yesterday. Was getting a little on the frame as well. I just can't seem to see where its coming from. The temp was around 40 degrees when I left home which is as cold as it been run at so far and only went up to about 47 and blew it out all day. The only change I made before riding it this time was I wired in heated grips. Any ideas? I'm hoping this is something common so I can rectify it and getting riding again. Thanks
Charcoal cannister. You may want to consider eliminating it.
Thanks!!! That was fast. I will try to search for a thread on here explaining how to do so.