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Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by crankshaft, Sep 6, 2011.
Completely hilarious. I've done something like this this summer. Felt straight on my head like a jack hammer. Helmet was cracked 5 inches afterward ...
Paul Jr 8
Only just got around reading the last few weeks of Advrider subscriptions and was most enthused to see a the string of posts on the OEM fuel pump issue and thought Id share my experience. Sorry for the bulky essay style, but this is the best way for me to share
One month after I got my otherwise in perfect condition third hand 09 690 duke with 14,000 km on the clock, I began having what we shall refer to as an apparent pump problem, heres the list of events in order of occurrence followed by my two cents
Bike rode perfectly normal for 650 km. Went to work one morning and to the beach in the afternoon
had a beer with my mates, got on the bike to go home tried cranking - Niet, and nearly killed the battery trying. Towed the bike home rather disappointed. The only observation at the time was an error flashing code 4x long, 1x short. User manual informed me of the possible cause being an Interruption or short-circuit to ground in fuel pump control circuit Pump problem diagnosed and I thereafter began listening for pump priming after reading a few forum posts on pump issues.
Removed the cold pump from the tank the next day and tested it with a direct 12 volt feed straight from the battery. It didnt turn at all, and appeared to be stuck, but returned to apparently normal function with a slight tap on the pump body - mechanical failure of some sort, IMHO. Didnt test the pump for flow rate, but I guestimate it may have been low and probably continued to decrease with time.
Fuel filter however was full of non-dense fine black particulate matter, not attracted to a magnet so plastic or carbon. Seen locally available fuel flow through clear filters for years on my moped and not accumulate black stuff so I doubt it was dirty fuel. Rinsed the fuel tank with clean fuel to see if there was anything out of the ordinary
nothing, tank was squeaky clean. So I cycled injector cleaner mixed into fuel through the pump until it started freely upon activation with 12 volts, i.e. without tapping. Put it all back together, bike started and worked okay for a few 100kms.
The next stall occurred after another normal ride; Id stopped the engine to take a picture of the bike with the sea in the background and once done it I couldnt get it to crank. This time, being aware that the pump should prime but didnt, I gathered a tap on the side of the tank where the pump is housed should sort it out, and it did with no cooling necessary! For me that was confirmation of my mechanical Pump problem
This problem became recurrent an issue shall we say, that IMO required a new pump, more specifically the CA Cycleworks pump, given the amount of babble on every forum Ive joined since I got the bike. Seen as I live on a remote island on the opposite side of the Earth from California, it took a while before I could lay my hands on the said pump. So I just went about my business tapping my tank every time it stalled and looking like a crazy fool patting his bike. No accidents, thank my luck, it never stalled in traffic.
Things got worse though, occasional problems cranking from cold in the morning and the most embarrassing farting noises from an otherwise beautiful bike. On cranking it would start, struggle to stay on, fart, stall and this despite an ultrasonically cleaned injector and a new fuel filter that incidentally also got black. Tank tapping resolved this too Mechanical, so we have a go? No!
This deteriorated! The bike would almost never crank the first time off; it required tank tapping each time, as well as a tiny bit of throttle to stop the engine from dying prematurely. Would stall more and more often during the first 5 minutes of riding and remain hesitant at low speed with horrid surging, but otherwise okay at cruising speeds.
Fortunately for me, a couple of mates came to visit me from the UK and brought my long awaited CA Cycleworks pump, shipped across the world from China to California, shipped to the UK then carried across the globe to me in Rodrigues. What a waste, now I need to plant a tree to offset its carbon footprint.
Anyhow, I whacked it on two Sundays ago; sorry no photos as its all explained on page 52 of the service manual or using the exploded diagrams in the freely available spare parts manual page 14 for the 2009 version. Two silly fitting problems noted: 1) neither of the female electrical connectors clicked into place resolved by sanding them down a few microns, and 2) the hose clamp CA Cycleworks provides wouldnt tighten the hose enough to keep it safely on the bottom half of the filter pipe resolved by pushing it up all the way to the filter body where the filter has more girth. Just to point out I had my doubts as to it staying up there with the increased pressure of the new CA pump! Anyway, some info for those without the service manual: 5 Nm of torque for the fuel pump assembly screws.
Fuel pump error codes were cleared and the new pump tested using TuneECUs diagnostic function
A new pump sound that was audibly more powerful than the old OEMs. Disconnected the Mac, put the seat back on, took the bike outside, turned the ignition on
another instant loud purring pump sound. The obvious clearing of air bubbles made it struggle a tad on cranking, but then it grunted brightly to life without the slightest tank tap what do we have here? It didnt stall not once and had a perfectly regular idle. Took her for a quick spin for a fill at the petrol station 2km away. What a ride
torquey, smooth, powerful and regular, just as the bike should be, and it has been like that ever since.
All hunky dory apart from last Saturday morning when I went into town to do my shopping and the bike died. It felt like I fan out of fuel so my intuition was hose must have slipped off since there were no error codes generated. So, while I doing my shopping, I picked up a more appropriate clamp for 10 Rupees (~20 US cents), picked up my tools from home, popped the tank and pump housing off, and to my satisfaction, the pump hose had effectively slipped off the filter! Resolved this by replacing the fancy CA clamp with a cheapo galvanised cooking gas hose clamp.
I went for a sweet ride around the islands twisties with a mate on a Suzuki 650 Bandit right after resolving the hose issue - 1cm chicken strip noted when we ended our rides at the beach. Another sweet ride with my lady on Sunday afternoon and cant say Ive ever enjoyed the bike as much since I got it.
Now here are a few key observations from my experience, and obviously this applies to my bike
All my observations suggest a mechanical failure: 1) tapping to activate the pump, 2) pump sticking with direct voltage testing, 3) black particles coming from the pump getting trapped in the filter and 4) new pump instantly resolving the Pump issue
I find it hard to believe in that my case I had an ECU problem for the same three reasons, plus the fact the CA pump hasnt given a hint of trouble as yet from day 1 and it was the only change to the system bar disconnection of the pump from the electrical system.
I cannot believe removing the pump can reset the ECU simply because I disconnected the pump in the past when I last changed the fuel filter without any noticeable change or improvement of my pump issue.
I didnt disconnect the battery for the replacement so no battery removal ECU reset to take any credit either. In the recent past I also disconnected the battery terminals once without any noticeable change or improvement of my pump issue.
I also passed injector cleaner mixed with fuel through the pressure regulator and frankly considering how it is designed, I highly doubt this rather crude mechanical device could be the cause of my issue and this is confirmed by the fact cleaning it brought no noticeable change or resolution of my pump issue. Just to reiterate what has already been said, the fuel pressure regulator is not attached to the ECU, the spare manual shows this and it is not on the wiring diagram either.
Lastly, I did a 15min idle reset at the last change of season without any noticeable change or improvement of my pump issue. So for me it is clear my ECU was not the culprit.
My recommendation to all if I may-
1) Keep your fuel pumps covered in fuel at all times as the fuel cools and lubricates the pump internals preventing premature failure. This means filling the tank before the bike asks you to! This is known throughout the fuel injection vehicle world no matter how many wheels are attached to the engine.
2) Change your fuel filter as a standard service item regardless that KTM dont say so in any manuals!
3) 690 users should think twice about replacing faulty pumps with OEM because it is more expensive and is now known to be prone to failure!
4) One repairing action at a time helps rule out confounding effects.
One caveat, new broom sweeps well
only time and reports of CA pump failures will tell if the Chinese CA pump is of better build than the Czechoslovakian OEM. Le Monde a lenvers some may say!
FYI, I havent dremelled my pump open and I dont plan to yet, because I would like to try using it to build a fuel injector-cleaning tool. Tapping the pump body will be a fine way to activate the injector cleaner When it dies completely I will open it up, see what I find and report back, but I suspect any permutation of the following: too small clearances, expansion of internals with heating and poor quality components.
While Im at it, Id like to raise the question on the function and size of the two holes on either side of the base of the fuel pump housing - 1 or 1.5 mmØ. These appear to allow the transfer of excess fuel pressure from the pressure regulator to the pump housing, increasing fuel pressure at the pump inlet. Or they may allow fuel into the housing to feed the pump. I think I read somewhere they may also help cool the pump but this is BS as fuel at the bottom of the tank should be cooler that residual fuel from the pressure regulator that just passed through the hot pump. I think a few larger holes in the pump housing base would allow more cool fuel to enter the pump; Im sure I read of someone already doing that. Also, Im starting to think the line coming out of the pressure regulator should be eliminated altogether so warm fuel doesnt get near the pump inlet but instead floats close to the top of the tank. Furthermore, the weight of fuel in the tank should provide more than adequate pressure to feed a pump seated at the bottom of the tank and pulling in fuel at the very lowest point. My two cents anyway, but Id love some input from others.
Thanks for reading,
Well written, and mirrors what I've found.
So I decided to go ahead and pull the cylinder and check the rings. Good thing I did. The gap on the ring is supposed to be .8 mm on the compression rings and 1 mm on the oil ring. The top compression ring was 1.9 mm, the second comp ring was .85 mm, and the oil ring was 2.1 mm. Needless to say I'm waiting on a ring kit now.
Were you burning oil before this?
Does anyone happen to have the part number for the Euro LED 690 tail light?
Here you go 76514040000. If you need any other bits, check the fiche here
Nope, not a drop which is why at first I wasn't going to bother pulling the cylinder. I figured since the base gasket was only $10 and I had it that far apart, may as well check it. Have to say I was shocked at how far out of spec they were and yet the bike ran good and didn't use oil.
The 08 is running great but she is burning more oil. The '10 would use the extra .3L (left over from the oil change) once in the interval.
The 08 is burning about 2 times that. I don't see any blue smoke during cold start. It is a pita though. Might take a look into her in a few months.
Thank you sir!
Have an evening to get at er again...
Pulled the fuel line (Where it connects from the last hose, a black "elbow" held on by one screw)
Not sure what I'm to expect? Fuel flows, the pump pumps, I wouldn't call it "pressure", more like a garden hose? But volume is there. Does the pressure build up after that point? Or should it come screaming with pressure right from the tank?
I'm assuming the pump feed it through the hoses, and it'll build after the point I've inspected at...
Good news is I'll be a pro wrench by the time I get er going!
In the past, I've just stuck a cheapo pressure gauge screwed into a barb fitting and just turned the key on to see if pressure would build. The pump pumps to the reg and then the reg sends 54 psi to the injector and dumps the residual back to the tank. If you have a pressure gauge on the end, it will either make 54 psi or it won't. I think a 5/16" Barb will work but be sure to clamp it and wear safety goggles. 54 psi is a good amount to get in your eye.
1/4" Female X 5/16" Barb fitting....
Good luck man!
That's awesome Crankshaft, thank you for the detailed response!
I just pulled what I'm guessing is called the injector? The final peice that heads into the intake.
Although my battery is running a bit low now, I don't believe fuel is shootting down? To calirfy...
Fuel line disconnected, turn key on, fuel flows. Hit start button and fuel flows. Reconnected fuel line.
Pulled the injector and turned key on again. Hit start button and the injector blew off into my jerry can, I didn't realize that was a possibility:eek1 But was smart enough to aim it away into a gas can!
Reconnected the injector (orange 'O' ring on the end) and reconnected that to the engine. All hooked up, turn key, hit start, I do not see fuel shooting down? (I'm looking through where the air filter connects, assoming I would see it through there with the throttle open?)
Sooo, clogged injector? I am without "proper" cleaner to clean it this evening. To recap, symptoms were -stalling at idle, and within a day or too, not starting at all.
Think I'll pick up a new plug tomorrow, charge the battery overnight, and get the injector cleaned. Soak it in appropriate cleaner work? Or a better recommendation?
Thanks for the continued suggestions and advice guys, Hope y'all never get tired of passing info to folks like me, I hope to be in a postion to help someone the same way someday!
I take my injectors to my local Moto shop and they toss them in the Ultra sonic cleaner. I ditched the quick disconnect and replaced it with a fuel filter, you might consider doing the same thing.
You tube, a wonderful thing!! A clip on there entitiled "How to clean KTM motorcycle fuel injector"
Was on a fuel injected 350, but a nice 1:30 video. Using 9 volt battery, opened the injector nozzle, then reverse-blew out the dirt particles with an air hose. Tried that, hooked it all back up and started right away! Scared the crap outta me
But, she did stall after a few minutes. But did restart, and then did re-stall again. So will re-clean the injector again, and trace back to the filter and clean out tank, get rid of any crap in there.
Many of my trouble shooting here, will just become such a part of my routine maintenance next year. Hoping that the cleaning gets it all running back on track. It stalling again is no good, but gotta be more crud in there I guess.
Will see tomorrow! And when I get a new filter also...
Good outcome. As crank says above - replace the internal fuel filter with an external one. I fitted mine inline after the quick-connect. So much easier to swap out whenever you feel like it
Over a year ago my 08 690 on occasions would stall & be a bit hard to restart . I replaced the fuel filter & fitted 1 of those screen filters to the top of the injector. I noticed the old fuel filter was full of black crap . First ride with the new filters I travelled about 100 kays & the bike would barely run . I removed the small screen filter from the injector & it was full of tiny black particles . I left the injector filter out & the bike ran ok again but I still had occasional stalling issues & the bike started to feel a bit doughy in the power department . In other words no improvement . The fuel pump always primed whenever the ignition was turned on . The bike seemed to get more doughy over time till it felt gutless . I pulled out the injector & back flushed it . Tiny little bits of black crap came out . Refitted the injector & went for a test ride . The bike felt a lot better for 20 minutes then went gutless again , reflushed the injector & more tiny bits of black crap came out .Refitted went for another test ride , went ok for 20 minutes , bike stops & wouldn`t restart . Got the bike home , back flushed injector again , more tiny bits of black crumbly stuff came out , refitted injector & bike still wouldn`t go . Turned out to be a fouled plug . On close examination of the plug I could see the spark arcing across to tiny small bits on the porcelain near the centre electrode . I then bought a fuel pressure gauge & tested . Only 25 psi pressure . I pulled the pump out & tested it in a bucket in case a hose was kinked or something . Still only 25 psi . I also noticed the recently fitted in tank fuel filter was again full of black crap . I replaced the fuel pump with a C.A. pump , replaced the injector & filter & refitted the little gauze filter to the top of the injector . The bike goes like a rocket again & hasn`t missed a beat for the last 5000km .
I have no doubt the black crap in the filter , injector & on the plug were bits of the brushes from the fuel pump .I know these tiny bits were getting through the standard tank filter over time & blocking the injector ( & tiny injector filter ) The original pump always primed & never needed a tap to get going yet in the end it would only pump half required pressure .
Note : When back flushing the injector I aimed it into a clean white tray & used a magnifying glass too see the black particles .
Just a side note. You don't need to build a fancy 9 volt battery thingy to cycle the injector you HAVE a very expensive injector cycler sitting in the garage, and it happens to be in an area where you're already working.
Gotta link to that video?