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Discussion in 'Land of the Rising Sun: ADV Bikes from Japan' started by D.T., Nov 10, 2012.
that pillion looks like a sex toy for the lady.
New video out today:
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Big takeaway? It comes in RED!
'Zactly. A lot of people said that the Dorso was what they wanted, but didn't like the small seat and limited fuel capacity. This bike fixes both of those issues, and people are still bitching. Clearly a direct Multistrada competitor, and given how most ADV bikes are actually used, I don't see how that's a bad thing. Perhaps a 17/19 wheel option would be cool, but other than that, it looks like a really nice package. Then again, TKC 80's come in 17's now anyway.....
I don't think there's demand for an ADV bike that does 24mpg.
Hyperbole much? :)
The 1200 in the Dursodoro does mid-thirties when railing on it, don't confuse it with the V4 in the Tuono/RSV4. Yeah, the DD1200 is thirsty, but no more so than the Hyper or even the SM, and it comes with a tiny tank because that's the motard "style".
The mill in the new Caponord has been detuned 5HP compared to the 'Duro, the torque peak has been shifted lower, the sprockets have been changed from 16/40 to a bit taller 17/42, and it seems to be more aerodynamic than the DD, so one can expect to see better economy out of the Capo in general. With a 24 liter tank (up from 15 liters on the DD1200) it should be able to see 200 miles on a tank when touring.
And I gotta get this out, it's NOT A FREAKING ADV BIKE! It's an ST bike with long travel suspension and absolutely no pretensions about off-tarmac performance.
It's clearly not aimed at the crowded tall-skinny-knobbly-tire/boxy-pannier segment that is the focus of this particular sub-forum (or really this site in general), and perhaps the decision to resurrect the Caponord name was wrong, but it's a trademark they already own.
It's really competing more with the Tiger 1050 and Versys 1000 types on the low end and the MTS1200 on the high end.
This thread really should be in Road Warriors, because that's what the new Caponord is.
Sorry mate, I took the RSV4 comment at face value.
The Dorso1200 has absolutely bombed, at least in the UK.
Since launch, they sold 65.
From what I read, the advantage of the new Capo will be all the bells & whistles in terms of electronics, at a lower price than the competition.
I wish Aprilia luck tbh, but they seem kinda directionless, eg. bring out the thirstiest, most focused, superbike when insurance and fuel prices have gone mental, and bring out a big ADV bike when that horse bolted so long ago it now lives in a glue factory.
A wider point might be the problem with any Italian marque against Ducati.
Guzzi do OK because of loyal customers, but allegedly Moto Morini got crushed because of some historical association with crappy old 350cc bikes. The Italians (bike ownership 1 in 10, compared to the UK and USA 1 in 100) simply wouldn't be seen on one.
MV? Bimota? Who has got 20-large to spend on a bike that won't run unless you have a hermetically sealed garage and an F1 engineer to set up the fuel injection?
RSV4 sales have been flat the last couple of years, the bike is getting long in the tooth by superbike standards, and of course the S1000RR and then Panigale stole a lot of thunder in the superbike segment. But since its release in 2009 it's been a successful bike in general both in terms of sales, accolades, innovation and brand recognition. Besides putting Aprilia on the podium many times, it's put the brand name out there in a very positive way. And people who buy supersports don't really care all that much about fuel economy. Also keep in mind they started work on the V4 platform in 2005-2006, at nearly the peak of worldwide motorcycle sales, and with much lower fuel prices.
The Tuono V4 is selling very well (leftover 2012 supply is almost nil), it's reviewed very well, and I expect to see it sell even better with a $1000 full-time price drop. It's been a hit for Aprilia, no question about it. You can buy a bike with TC, ABS, and 167 manageable horsepower for the price of a base-model Speed Triple or Z1000. This is a bike that does create rider discontent with fuel range, but despite that being a well-known issue, it's still selling like hotcakes.
The Dorsoduro 750 and 1200 are playing in a niche segment, granted, and it's not a very practical bike for UK riders, but if you look at the bike as a foundation to build a little more brand awareness and a way to develop an internal V-twin design (instead of farming out to Rotax) and new chassis platform, it's done a good job. I'd also be interested to see how well the Hyper 1100 sold in the UK.
As for the Caponord, the market for upright sport touring bikes in North America is perhaps one of the strongest outside of the cruiser segment, and the one with the highest profit margins overall worldwide. But not everyone wants or even wants to pretend they're going to take it off road, and for a lot of people this bike ticks all the right boxes.
Tires sized for tarmac handling performance? Check
Suspension tuned for 100% road use? Check
Copious amounts of power and torque? Check
Interesting soundtrack? Check
Styling that's not inspired by the GS? Check
Proven engine platform? Check
Touring-friendly tank range? Check
Upright ergonomics? Check
Long-travel suspension? Check
Slim-mounted, filtering-friendly panniers that don't look like an afterthought? Check
Sub-600 pound wet weight? Check
Comprehensive electronics and safety package? Check
Has a whiff of the "exotic"? Check
Doesn't come with a roundel? Check
Doesn't have desmodromic valves? Check
Doesn't say "Made in Japan"? Check
Doesn't cost north of $20,000 USD? Check
Has appeal to riders who aren't pensioners yet? Check
There's a market for this bike, and it's a hot market at the moment. Unless there's some glaring faults, it'll steal a few MTS sales on price alone, it'll steal a few Tiger 1050/Versys sales by moving those riders upmarket, it steal a few GS and KTM Adventure sales by moving them downmarket (or into the right market once they admit they don't need off-road features) and it'll convert more than a few v-twin Tuono riders and their ilk to a more comfortable, more practical platform.
As for Guzzi doing ok because of the faithful, look at the bottom lines...Aprilia does better sales numbers worldwide than Moto Guzzi by a fair margin (scooters help that a lot, granted), but believe it or not, there does exist a group of people who consider themselves Aprilia faithful. :)
Well if I didn't realise you were an Ape afficianado by your first reply to my post, I did by the second
The Dorso 750, btw, does well here. I see quite a lot of them about. I don't know how many are 'keepers' but it's probably the most accessible big SM on the market. Frankly, I'd love one.
On the wider issue, Aprilia UK now has only 5 models in their range. That's not healthy for anyone.
In terms of brand recognition, certainly amongst bikers, I'd bet that most riders could name the town where Ducatis are made, some could name where the Guzzis come from, but only the most hard-core could name where Aprilia make their bikes.
That's not a knock on the bikes, just a comment on the recognition that Aprilia has in a crowded market-place.
As I said, I wish them luck.
Aprilia "directionless" where have you been?! Under a rock! They been the innovative and have the best superbike(oh, yes, I remember now, the S1000RR actually won A race), the best sportbike(Tuono), an automatic for the handicapped, have even won at Dakar, not to mention its the winningest racing manufacturer on Italian soil and probably Japanese too.
Would it be fair to say you have a vested interest - such as being an Aprilia/Piaggio employee? No harm if you are - it's great when the industry participates in discussions, whether overtly or covertly.
As the owner of two of the "real" Caponords (well, technically one is my wife's, but I have the privilege of paying its bills!) as well as 4 Guzzis, I'll suggest that Aprilia has made a glaring error in calling this new bike the Caponord: for a start, there's the fact that, despite it being one of the most under-rated bikes around, the original Caponord doesn't have a very good reputation: a brilliant design and first-class workmanship was let down by decisions apparently made by accountants and the bike's reputation suffered because two-dollar plastic fuel disconnects snapped when ten-dollar metal ones don't, under-specced coils, rectifiers and wiring failed prematurely, etc.
Once these and a few other well-documented niggles are fixed, the Capos are utterly dependable and go pretty-much anywhere.
My Capo wears Heindenau K60s and does duties as a tourer, dirt-road-explorer, commuter and even school-pick-up & drop-off: every journey we make starts and finishes with 4km of dirt road - the first (and last) 800 metres are especially rough and rocky - that's our driveway. (Hey, it discourages the Jehovah's Witlesses, okay!)
The other mistake Aprilia has made matches BMW's choice of calling an entirely different bike the same as a succesful, popular long-running model, the F650GS; management will be cursed by spare parts managers and buyers alike for decades to come. My wife's in the market for a smaller, more nimble runabout, but found comparing three different BMW 650 singles with twin-cylinder 650s that are actually 800s all with more or less the same name just too confusing and will probably get something Japanese. Or possible a Triumph.
As Guzzi "faithful", yes, we've ridden the Stelvio - and it doesn't do anything better enough than what we already have to justify the $15-18,000 (each!) :eek1 extra we'd have to tip in to exchange our Capos for Stelvios. If there was a 750cc 3/4 sized version - we'd take a much harder line to the bank-manager.
I see the "new" Capo as merely a "me-too, me-too" clone of the Multistrada (itself a lie - it is more of a Monostrada: you wouldn't take either off the bitumen. And how long before Ducati produce a naked version called the Monstrada?); it's a sit-up-and-beg styling exercise, a touring bike for image-concious old people.
I dread New Capo owners discovering that the much vaunted electronics have been built using the same poor-quality, cheap-cheap components that vilified the original Caponord - that will do irrepairable damage to both the nameplate and the brand.
And I hope the factory has seriously addressed the DD's ruinious thirst - here, away from the main connurbations fuel stations can be a long way apart.
Thanks to a talented and dedicated Caponord owner in California (Hi CatFish ), Capo owners have been able to remap their bikes to a level that boosts power, smooths delivery and cuts fuel burn by as much as 25%: we'll get close to 300 miles from our 6.5 (US) gallon tanks, yet they still see 140 mph, and on 87 octane fuel.
Luckily we don't need new bikes - the 2001-built Caponords do more, for less, than the 2013 models could hope to; if we DID need new bikes - well, I suspect we'd be looking at Triumph's 800s.
Nope, not an employee or in the industry at all, just another enthusiast and generally satisfied Aprilia owner with time on his hands to write over-long posts.
On the subject of metal vs. plastic fuel fittings, that was not a problem isolated to Aprilia. I know from personal experience that Triumph had the same issue in that same time period, and all my 955's had to have metal connectors retro-fitted (and all my Triumph 955's used Sagem fuel injection systems and coils)
But I've got to hammer on the whinging about the "me too" clone.
The original ETV could have been (and WAS) easily lumped into that category back in 2002...as yet another pretender for the GS throne, and back then there were far fewer of those then than there are now (it predated both the V-Strom and the Adventure 950, among others if you recall). And by all measures, it was a failure for Aprilia. Poor sales, lacklustre reviews at best, etc.
The current Aprilia has worked hard at creating a performance image, aimed at a younger and/or more technology-focused demographic, while Moto Guzzi goes for the older market, the market that perks up when words like "history", "character" and "over-engineered" are spoken.
They KNOW they don't have any "street cred" (or is that "dirt cred"?) with the adventure touring market. A market (as I mentioned) that's crowded as shit these days, and crowded with very good bikes.
But they do have plenty of street cred these days when it comes to building advanced, exciting, characterful road bikes.
So Ducati comes along and builds their best-selling bike ever, the Multistrada 1200. The MTS steals a march on everyone and generally firms up (if not outright creates) a new market segment. They sold the MTS to die-hard BMW owners, lifelong sportbike owners, dedicated Japanese riders, as well as to the existing Ducatisti. It's done wonders for their market share, their profitability, and their image.
I'm pretty sure at that point, somebody in Noale said:
"You know Massimo, we could do something like that, and far better than we could another knobbly-tire me-too GS clone. It fits right into our brand image, and it can easily use a lot of bits and bobs we're already making or have in the warehouse so we can sell it at an attractive price."
As for the choice of name, I imagine another conversation that went like this:
"Thats a brilliant idea, Giacomo! But what shall we name it?"
"One step ahead of you, Massimo. We save money on the trademark bullshit and call it the Caponord, since we already own the name. Besides, nobody really remembers that dismal-selling failure from a decade ago, but the name still sounds cool and evocative."
Aprilia could be ALMOST forgiven for the plastic fuel connectors - I suspect they were specified before ethanol in fuel was common - or properly researched; over there in usa-land, I gather most of your ethanol comes from corn; in other places in the world it comes from sugar - and in some places, the gasolene is made from coal - so, chemical properties can change a bit! But for bikes built much later, to fit embrittlement-prone fuel fittings is inexcusible - so Triumph's misdemeanour is surprising.
No, the original Caponord wasn't a me-too clone of the millenium-era GS1150 - that would be down to the Guzzi Quota; the Caponord was more a foil to Yamaha's 900 TeDiuM - another chain-driven twin that had dirt-road capabilities rather than a dirt-focussed persona, like the GS; you just have to look at the advertising of the day: GS-man is usually alone, standing on the pegs, spinning mud off the rear wheel, whereas Capo-adverts had a flimsy maiden on the rear, the lucky rider sampling some improbably gorgeous Italian twisty roads.
I think the beef that many ADV riders has is the assumption that because a bike has wide bars and handguards, it's an ADV bike. The Multistrada isn't, and the Nuoveo Capo isn't either; there are too many apparently vulnerable parts on both bikes and the small front wheels may make steering easier for old people (or on bikes with narrow bars), but they offer little confidence when crossing logs or muddy potholes.
Chasing ever-more technology, power and bulk is self-defeating when you venture off the bitumen, let alone into the forests: my Caponord is way over-powered (by a huge margin) - roughly 100 horsepower is going to get you into a lot more trouble than it'll get you out of; 250kg usually needs two people to restore to the vetical and the bike's long enough that turning around at a dead end in a forest is an exercise best tackled with deliberation; in contrast, any of our street-legal dirt bikes will nail the Capo on all but the best dirt roads - but they sure aren't fun to go touring on and they suck as load-luggers and commuters.
Aprilia are serial offenders at misreading the market: their 450 and 550 V-twin dirt-bikes did huge damage to their cedibility: fast beyond belief, but like a grenade with the pin pulled out most of the time. Love the technology, but I wouldn't have one of these things as a gift: much as I enjoy spannering, I hate walking back up the trail to get the truck and loading ramp. Offer me a 450 BMW and that's a different case!
I'd venture that the new crop of MultiStrada rivals aren't intended to go anywhere like as far as earlier ADV bikes - but no-one has come up with a suitably macho, butch name for the class of bikes you suggest was invented by Ducati, so they're all lumped in together: are you seriously suggesting that the Ducati or New Capo is a rival for a GS Adventure or Triumph Explorer? Of course not - because they aren't.
I've ridden most of the bikes in the field over the years - and the Multistrada is, to a purist, neither fish nor fowl - which is perhaps why it's their "best selling model" (you sure? - better than the Monster in its many guises? I'd be surprised - here in Australia, they're a rare thing).
We've thinned our Ducati collection from three to one but for us, a Ducati is first and foremost a characterful sporting motorcycle: it is not a tourer, it is not a commuter and it certainly isn't a dirt-bike - no matter what label gets hung on it by marketers, dealers, journos or owners. What CAN collect more of those tags, is the average Guzzi: yes you can tour them, commute them, load them with luggage and head off round the planet, dirt roads or tar - and, within reason, you can scratch in the canyons with them too - it's a far wider repertoire than most other bikes can offer.
BNevertheless, I hope Aprilia sells a squillion of the new bikes and stays in business to The End of Days; I just think they could have come up with a new name for what is essentially a Dorsodoro Tourer - it has no connection with the existing, real Caponord, beyond a similar number of wheels and cylinders.
I might regret it, but I'd trade my Stelvio for it. :tb
The Mana has been dropped, if that's what you mean by 'an automatic for tha handicapped'??
And while the RSV4 and Tuono may indeed be class-leading in many respects, they are simply not selling to road users.
Wasn't it sometime last year that the only production line open at Noale was for the Dorso 750?
Has it been released yet? Every time i view an Aprilia forum there seems to be less and less dealers around. My local one is crap. Another went bust last year.
I was a BMW owner for years until I rode an aprilia Futura. The Futura is a wonderful bike...once all the well publicized niggles have been tended to. Don't tell my Futura, but I have been looking around at possible replacements. I don't want a more than 600 lb "adventure" bike. I want a ST bike that weighs at most 550 wet, gets 45 mpg, is immune to ethanol, has reliable electrics, and is affordable. I haven't found anything yet! The new Capo will deserve a look, but my closest aprilia dealer is 2.5 hours away. No to GS, no to Stelvio, no to MTS, maybe to Tiger 800 roadie, maybe to Tiger Explorer...
What to do, what to do...
Triumph Sprint GT?
That's my main problem with this bike, it screams parts bin special, and it does so taking parts from Aprilia's entry level bikes!
The MTS is a bespoke bike, same goes for the Stelvio, Tiger 1150, Versys 1000, and most of the ADV Tourers. Most of them share their engines with other bikes from the same manufacturer, but Aprilia took it too far with the Caponord sharing everything but the bodywork. Even then, the bikes it will compete to are not based on entry level bikes either!
That's why I said I would expect it to be based off the RSV4, like the original Caponord was. Detune the engine, change cams, ECU tunning, etc. It could be made into a sedate engine with good fuel economy. Give it a new frame, not the same frame on the Shiver 750. RSV4 "like" headlights? Looks tacky and out of place, like BMW headlights on a Honda Civic.