New tire need scuffing myth

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by TheBlurr, Dec 20, 2013.

  1. Louis Wambsganss

    Louis Wambsganss Been here awhile

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    Agreed. Clearly, some of us (myself included) have direct first-person experience with the phenomena that the OP claims does not exist. Maybe it is less common than in the past, but it clearly does exist to some extent. If some of us take care to scuff/clean/abrade a tire before fully stressing it, what's the harm? I don't think anyone is saying "I'm an awesome rider and these darn tires made me crash." We are just saying that it is something that people should be aware of in case it happens to them.
    #21
  2. Louis Wambsganss

    Louis Wambsganss Been here awhile

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  3. TheBlurr

    TheBlurr Banned

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    But its not, more than likely the feeling you are associating with being slick tires are simply going from tires which have less shape to them, your new ones will have more and not that flat spot which you became accustomed to. Trust me, when you put on a new set your bike will turn quicker do to this phenomenon.
    Tires with more shape (all tires via different brands, or tread) will have a different handling characteristic, and you should take that into account anytime you start to ride until you are familiar.

    But whatever, this entire debate reminds me of religion "Well just in case I will pray" PFFFTTT

    People should take a track day, what an eye opener to realize what a crap rider you really are.

    Oh and if you really think your slick tires are at fault for making you wreck, do you really think that during varying rode conditions, slick roads, lines, ect that your tires do not lose some grip? Are you afraid then?
    #23
  4. Louis Wambsganss

    Louis Wambsganss Been here awhile

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    I don't pray for anything. I'm an Engineer.

    Of all the tires I have owned, only these Z8s have caused me any issues. I have even had other Metzelers (ME880s) without any issues.

    I have had the rear fishtail on clean concrete on a warm day in a sweeping turn, nowhere near maximum lean or high throttle input, in the middle of a couple-hour-long ride (not cold tires). No sand, oil, or debris on the road. Just extending into the chicken strips further than before on new tires. As can be seen on my previous post with the pic, I was not anywhere near the edge of the tire.

    I have not fallen or crashed due to this, just felt the fishing, puckered up for a second, and continued on. I can certainly believe others who have had similar experiences with similar or worse outcomes.
    #24
  5. TheBlurr

    TheBlurr Banned

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    Welcome to riding on two wheels vs having four and three others to compensate when one loses traction.

    Tires get hot, very hot, the more you ride they will actually "sweat" oil, this is something you will see on track tires where it looks as if the rubber is actually lava and melting.

    You as an engineer aught to take some time, read books, do a couple track days, take a couple classes and start finding out what happened.
    You never will know until you take a look at this like an engineer, do not take peoples advice who are busy perpetuating old wives tales.
    Tell me, in whatever kind of engineering you are in, how much would get done if this is how people tried to build something?
    #25
  6. L.B.S.

    L.B.S. Long timer

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    Yes, yes you are.

    To even start this thread with such patronizing condescension, screams arrogance.
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  7. Louis Wambsganss

    Louis Wambsganss Been here awhile

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    Agreed. To make a statement such as, and I quote, "There is absolutely no truth whatsoever to the "slick" new tires" is very arrogant. That claim asserts that you are smarter and more skilled than every single person in the history of motorcycle tires who has claimed that new tires are slick, for any reason. That is statistically improbable.

    I have ridden multiple bikes year-round in dry sub-freezing conditions, and warmer wet conditions. My only experience with a tire getting 'squirrelly" for no apparent reason was on a new tire, leaning slowly into the chicken strips.

    Plenty of other riders on this forum (in this post and in multiple others) and on other forums all report similar stories. It is a possibility that the OP is a god among motorcyclists and everyone else is an idiot. However, that is a very remote possibility. What is much more likely is that there is some truth to the recurring situations.

    If you rule out road surface conditions, ambient conditions, and bike control inputs, you are left with tire surface friction (or maybe invisible goblins mysteriously ejaculating into the contact patch).
    #27
  8. dogjaw

    dogjaw plays well alone

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    "I am not arrogant..."

    Yeah, I picked right up on that when I saw your user name; not just Blurr, but The Blurr... Such humility must make you so proud.
    #28
  9. luckygrownup

    luckygrownup Been here awhile

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    Yeah, that was my post. I think this the first time I tried to counter-steer a bike on cold or new tires. It was pretty stupid. But, in three years of commuting in all weather, and about 5-6 sets of road tires, I have had one violent fish tail on a R1150 RTP. I think I mistakenly attributed that cause to oil or a white line. But, now I think it was just cold tires.

    So, I am still learning... :clap
    #29
  10. Louis Wambsganss

    Louis Wambsganss Been here awhile

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    There seems to be a common trait among some of these reports, and that is Metzeler Tires. I've had Metz ME880s without issue. They would break traction gradually and in a controlled manner, but that was probably close to 10 years ago. The Z8s I have now are the only one's that have given me issues.
    #30
  11. dmcd

    dmcd Been here awhile

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    For two weeks each year I go to the IOM TT/ Manx GP. I have watched literally hundreds of riders go off the line with stickers on their new shiny tyres and hit top speed straight away. But if you watch and listen to the on board footage, of which there is many hours on Youtube, they all take it (slightly) easier for the first few corners and miles.


    I rate their "real road racing" opinion, higher than your gravel trap/air fence cosseted track racers and tutors.


    But, I do also agree with you that the profile of a new tyre makes a bike feel different, and could mistakenly be blamed on the coating.
    #31
  12. L.B.S.

    L.B.S. Long timer

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    My Z8's tossed me on my ass 5' past the exit out of the Dealer's lot, on my brand new, 0 mile bike. :lol3

    I nearly had it happen again minutes later, when I left the lot turning left this time, instead of right! You believe me I hope, when I tell you I was freaked out after the initial binning, so I was beyond careful leaving the second time, and Auuuuugh! Almost again!? WTF! :eek1

    This was the first time this has ever happened to me in over 40+ years of riding, 22 motorcycles, nearly a million km's travelled all over the continent, and uncountable number of new tires.

    In the past, I've always taken care to gingerly make my way home to give the new tires a good scrubbing, or been extremely careful about the first several miles. Some have been a bit twitchy and slippery, others felt pretty grippy straight away. I've had lots and lots of happy dealings with other Metzeler tires.

    These tires felt like they were dipped in fricking Armor All, and then slathered in axle grease! :huh I didn't even have the chance to carefully go a few feet, before *crash*.


    The Metz Z6's on my previous BMW felt just fine. I never noted the slightest issue with those. I would have given them 9 out of 10 if they had a better method to indicate tread wear at the centre of the rear tire, which the Z8's appeared to have addressed with the new lateral grooves in the design. I was looking forward to many happy miles on them. :cry


    Was this all my fault? Absolutely, I cop full blame, no one but me to point the finger at. I know what I know though. I regret not scuffing up the tires prior to leaving the dealer.
    #32
  13. TheBlurr

    TheBlurr Banned

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    :huh so lets think about what u said for a minute. These guys are taking corners right off at speeds the rest of can only dream of under the best of times. Yet meanwhile joe blow is wrecking driving down the road at normal speeds and the tires must be slick, ok then.
    I seriously doubt a single one of them would discredit A former world moto gp champs manager as a gravel trap tutor lol. Come on man read the article and think about what yer saying.
    Now we are getting somewhere, a reasonable mind presented with a new Idea :freaky
    #33
  14. Pantah

    Pantah PJ Fan from Boston

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    Everything the OP said is true. New street tires from the major producers don't need to be scrubbed. New race tires are not heat cycled and other than the warm-up lap, they hit turn one on sticker tires. Every heat cycle reduces the tire's grip, so race tires that have more than one heat cycle will be slower. Race tires are cooked in tire warmers for at least 30 minutes prior to taking the track, whether they are new or old.

    Let people believe what they want. If they feel better scrubbing in tires so be it.
    #34
  15. dmcd

    dmcd Been here awhile

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    Oops Pantah, you beat me to it, my reply was meant for the Blurr.

    Sorry, I don't understand your point, they go a little slower on the first few bends/miles, to let the tyre warm up, bed in, scrub in or whatever. Surely you are arguing against this?

    Maybe the "champs" manager will also tell him not to bother with the warm up lap either as it is a waste of time? You haven't considered traction control either.


    You believe him if you want, but I'll take my advice from those who race on road tyres, (in some classes) on real roads, in the real world.


    Summary:- Some tyres may not need scrubbed, but many still do.


    ( have I used the word real, too much? ;-) )
    #35
  16. TheBlurr

    TheBlurr Banned

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    White lines can be slick, as can manhole covers ect, oil will come up from the road during rain decreasing your traction, it is also why you should not ride in the center of a lane right after a rain.
    It could also have been the cold tires, good for you to think about what happened and hopefully prevent it in the future :)
    #36
  17. dmcd

    dmcd Been here awhile

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    We can expect to see the end of the "warm up" lap then?
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  18. TheBlurr

    TheBlurr Banned

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    Tires need to be brought up to an optimal temperature which maximizes the grip, to hot they become "greasy" to low they are not sticky enough.

    The article talks about this :)

    Edit: Soon as you take the tire out of the warmer it begins to cool, thus why you have warm up lap to bring it back up to temp.
    #38
  19. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

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    That's how all my tyres look like. However, I'm not pushing it hard enough on public roads to recognize any difference between the completely scuffed area and the first time of touching the untouched area when at last a peg touches the ground.

    What I don't get: When it's a myth, why do the professional riders do it all the time?
    Also from my personal experience, especially on cold days, the tyre gets warm in the centre from as you said acceleration and braking, but since rubber isn't an exceptional well heat conductor, that heat is NOT transfered to the sides of the tread. Even after miles and miles of riding, including upright ABS braking.

    Why the fuck should I use such old, not to say rotten, tyres? I'm always buying the newest tyre model, manufactured a few weeks or at worst months ago. My tyres in general don't happen to become older than a year until they're changed. Buy outdated stuff only to save maybe twenty bucks a piece? Seriously?
    #39
  20. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

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    Think about it for a minute, fellas. Think of the liability aspect. Do you actually think tire manufactureers are sending motorcycle tires out of the plant covered in a slippery substance? Really?

    Why do people crash on new tires? They're cold. They're overinflated from the shop (maybe). They are covered in tire lube from a sloppy tirechanging job at the shop (maybe). They have a different profile from the tire the rider is used to. Etc. Slippery from the factory? Not so much.
    #40