New tool in LEO's tool kit

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by PT Rider, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. PT Rider

    PT Rider Been here awhile

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    http://www.logarchism.com/2013/06/18/supreme-court-watch-voter-registration-edition/

    So, when LEO has stopped us and is questioning us, before we're arrested and Mirandized, anything we do not say can be used against us. We do not have to admit to doing anything illegal, and we must not lie,* but in order to safely say nothing, we have to say something about asserting our Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. In the case in question, the person, before he were arrested and Mirandized, willing answered certain questions and remained silent for other questions. His willing answers were taken as waiving his 5th Amendment right, and his silence to other questions was told to the jury as an indication of guilt.** One may also be OK if they say nothing more than their name and address, or perhaps say that the info on the driver's license they handed over is valid, and then say nothing more.


    *Police have the legal right to lie to us, but it is illegal for us to lie to the police.

    **http://www.logarchism.com/2013/04/17/supreme-court-watch-salinas-v-texas/
    #1
  2. SloMo228

    SloMo228 World Class Cheapass

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    That's the main problem - don't say anything if you're arrested.
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  3. Zerk

    Zerk DILLIGAF

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    I watched some clip, by some guy claiming to teach law. He said don't say anything, cause it can be taken many different ways.

    Problem is, if you are pulled over on the road, you are going to end up having to say something. I guess if you got caught doing 150 in a 25, with an underage hooker on the back, and have no hope of getting off, you can clam up. But usually you end up saying something.
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  4. RTLover

    RTLover Long timer

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    Post-arrest, you'll be Mirandized anyway and you can decide if you want to respond or not. And at the same time you can invoke your right to have counsel.
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  5. Bucho

    Bucho Long timer

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    How about just dont break the law in the first place.

    And if you get caught speeding just be an adult and take your ticket.
    #5
  6. sarhog

    sarhog Ride far...

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    It is not illegal to lie to the police about your OWN guilt or innocence.
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  7. Geepn

    Geepn Been here awhile

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    The police will ask you questions and use the answers against you before they arrest you. When you have been detained by a police officer for investigation or questioning dont answer any questions. ask for a lawyer.
    When the officer continues to ask questions ask" Can I go now? or am I under arrest", unless the officer places you under arrest continue to ask the question "can I go now or am I under arrest". That is the only thing you should be saying to an officer after you identify yourself.
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  8. khager

    khager Long timer

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    So if you just don't break any laws, you won't get arrested.:lol3:lol3:lol3

    I hate to tell you this but there are a lot of innocent people in jails for a myriad of things. A lot of times the charges are dropped at a later time for lack of evidence, or a Grand Jury fails to indict due to lack of evidence. Sometimes charges are never filed due to lack of evidence, doesn't mean you won't get arrested.
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  9. genka

    genka SUV hater

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    You probably talking about this pair of videos

    <iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/i8z7NC5sgik" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/08fZQWjDVKE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Both of them are must see.
    #9
  10. windmill

    windmill Long timer

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    Considering this is a riding forum, and most folks here will only be interacting with law enforcement for a minor traffic offense, I don't see how being antagonistic by invoking your rights during a traffic stop is going to be productive.

    I suppose we have a few hardened criminals among us who would benefit from that advice, but for the rest of us its just asking for avoidable grief. :amazon
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  11. duck

    duck Banned

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    One I learned from an attorney friend is if a LEO asks you a question then you simply respond by asking back: "Am I required by law to answer that question?" This is a situation where an officer cannot lie to you without violating your rights. Well-trained LEOs will not answer the question but respond by asking you yet another question. To which you should give the same response you did earlier.

    Of course I am not advocating this approach for a simple traffic stop because the LEO will probably think you're a dick and write you up.
    #11
  12. RTLover

    RTLover Long timer

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    The cop is so full of himself that he exaggerates or misspeaks about every 30 seconds.
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  13. Ceri JC

    Ceri JC UK GSer

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    They changed the way things were worded slightly here in the UK a few years ago. Liberals pissed themselves in fear and started talking about how it was the end of days, a new police state was coming, etc.

    What it meant in practice, for anyone other than "serious criminals"?
    If you claim in court that the reason why you were doing 50 in a 30 was because you were rushing to defuse a nuclear bomb, this will be somewhat undermined if you didn't explain it at the time of your arrest/detainment. Unless of course, you can give a clear reason why you couldn't tell the policeman that at the time (like you thought he was a double agent).

    What it really achieved was to reduce the chance of the bad guys thinking up "plausible enough" stories to justify their actions after the fact, or to collude with accomplices to come up with one. On balance, it was a good thing, for everyone but the bad guys, but by God, if you said that when they were bringing it in, you might as well have had a swastika armband on.
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  14. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    pretty much same thing I learned

    several years ago,I was designated driver, taking someone home, plenty of empties (returnable for deposit)rolling around in the bed of my pickup truck, I was stopped cause for some stupid reason (didn't dim my headlights for oncoming traffic on the other side of a 200ft wide median :huh (our state regulation is diming @ 150 ft)

    how it went

    LEO " license & registration please
    Me . hand LEO license & registration but did not speak
    LEO "do you know why I stopped you"
    Me, "No"
    LEO" you didn't dim your headlights...... bla bla bla.... step out of truck
    Me "am I under arrest"
    LEO "not at this time, step out of vehicle please"
    Me "no, not unless your arresting me"
    LEO places me under arrest for DWI and mirrandizesme, I step out of car
    Leo " Stand behind truck, walk heal to toe, yada yada
    me, " no, I would like to speak to my lawyer, "
    LEO, well, you seem to be ok, and apparently unarrested me let me go
    #14
  15. scottrnelson

    scottrnelson Team Orange

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    The guy referenced in the original post had not been arrested at the time that he answered a few questions and then wouldn't answer the shotgun question.

    It's fine to say "just don't break the law", but sometimes we are suspected of doing something wrong even when we haven't actually done anything wrong. Our answers can be misinterpreted, and that's what the lawyer in those two videos is trying to help protect us from.
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  16. Vulfy

    Vulfy Been here awhile

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    Not true. Recently I was stopped in my car (I do ride my motorcycle sometimes, really) for not putting my turn signal when changing lanes, right in front of the cop car.

    Last day of the month, ticket quota is biting them in the ass, so he stops me. Gives me a ticket for improper lane change, that $130 fee and 2 point on my license here in NYC.

    When he stopped me, he asked did I know why he stopped me. I said "no idea". He responded saying that I failed to put my turn signal on, when changing lanes.

    I am one of those people that get a guilty look and feeling inside, when I talk to, or even see a cop. I have no idea why, I'm a law abiding citizen, with clean record, and no skeletons in my closet to keep me awake at night.
    Despite all of that, I always do feel guilty when talking to the cops (thankfully I don't talk to them often).

    So I started muttering that I did turn my signal on, but it must have clicked off when I changed lanes, etc, etc.

    Did I put my turn signal on? YES. As a matter of fact, it is one of my pet peeves on the road. I HATE when people do not signal their turns. I do as I preach, so I always signal.

    So what happened? I have no idea. He might not have seen it. Turn signal might have canceled itself as I turned my wheel to change lane. Maybe I pushed the lever thinking I signaled, but didn't click it down enough to actually engage the blinker....

    The point is, just because I started talking to him, trying to explain what could have happened, in the court, I was instantly guilty, because he brought that conversation up. I don't know if it would have helped if I kept my mouth shut and just got the ticket, but it sure wouldn't have hurt me. So I wholeheartedly agree with that video.

    Its not about you being or not being a criminal. Its about keeping yourself safe. As it is explained in the video, talking will NEVER and CAN NEVER be used in your defense. It can and may be used ONLY to incriminate you even further. So if there is ABSOLUTELY nothing good that can come out of it, and a slightly higher chance in your favor if you don't, why put yourself on a chopping table, despite how minor your alleged offence might be.

    Don't poke at the cop and try to show how smart you are, just don't give them anything. Get your ticket, keep your mouth shut and let your lawyer deal it with it later if you feel it was unjustified.
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  17. Dranrab Luap

    Dranrab Luap E-Tarded Super Moderator

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    Those two are idiots of the highest order. If you have done something terribly wrong, what they say may be your best bet, but if you are pulled for going 13 over, doing what they suggest will SURELY get you a ticket.

    Most LEOs will tell you that they don't always know when they will and won't ticket. The nature of the interaction after the stop will play a significant role in the decision. Once you become uncooperative, you have extended them an invitation to take a much closer look, so at this point you better hope you are squared away.
    #17
  18. Dranrab Luap

    Dranrab Luap E-Tarded Super Moderator

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    Yeah, when cops hear that someone wants to talk to "my" lawyer it intimidates the hell out of them. One day, many years ago, I wrote two lawyers for BUI. They both lost.

    Do you have any reason to believe things would have worked out any differently in your stop if you had cooperated?
    #18
  19. Queenie

    Queenie Adventurer

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    DING, DING, DING!!! Winnner, winner, chicken dinner! Seriously...I totally agree with this. If you (the violator) that I stop start the contact off with "am I free to leave" or "I choose not to speak to you" I can promise you that you will get a ticket. Courtesy goes both ways. I am very nice and friendly to everyone I stop and I hope that my violators are at least cordial. I get that people don't like being caught when they do something wrong. But get this...I already witnessed you violate the law and most likely, I have it on tape. So it would be a great idea for you to act like a decent human being to me. When violators pull this crap when I approach their car, my first thought is that I bet their driving history is multiple pages long. When I check it, I'm usually right.

    And this "I'll get my attorney to take care of it" is fine if you choose to do that but I'll tell you this. In 25 years as an LEO, I can't begin to count the people I have arrested because their crap attorney didn't take care of business and let their traffic ticket go to warrant. So at least follow up after you give it to your attorney to make sure they "took care of it".
    #19
  20. t-bills

    t-bills mcs are dangerous

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    CS&M is spreading, leaking into other areas. It is a nasty disease that I thought I was keeping at bay. Anybody got any of the anti-CS&M cream I can have?
    #20