No stop USA

Discussion in 'Trials' started by lineaway, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    I posted there, smartassedly, and afraid to go back, lol. But when I was there, they were talking about the UK, not the USA...

    It is still about quit being a girlscout, and trying to change the boyscouts.

    My last, but highly screaming remark on the whole NO STOP crap is...
    If They want NO STOP, start THIER own dang organization/sanctioning body, but & leave the modern trials we already have, alone. :deal

    there are more than enough other problems to get fixed with the existing rules we need to work on, to keep everyone busy for the next 30 years, LOL...
    #61
  2. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    The No Stop discussion is great way to look at the current state of our sport. A healthy discussion can help us understand where we are and where we are going. We all want the same thing, to keep our sport fun and healthy.

    It seems that some people think that No Stop means means no trick riding, no hopping, no nose wheelies....that's not the case.


    It has to do with how we set our sections. Do we want a series of "boxes" that force us to" hop" all day or do we set fun flowing sections that we get to "ride".

    I believe if there is too many "rat maze" sections that people get discouraged. Keeping it FUN is what keeps people riding trials and also attracts new riders.
    #62
  3. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Lowpsi, I dunno, I think no stop means, judgement calls. Exactly when might you stop. Do you recall, that it wasnt that long ago, that we could take hands off the bars and move rear of bike wherever? Or that we used to ride up to a particular spot, then make the bike roll back as far as we needed to, then go?

    The biggest and DUMBEST arguement for no-stop, is that suddenly there are people falling out of the woodwork to try trials, or to come back to trials.

    In reality, juniors, beginners, even an enduro class (which we'll have to make this class if Ossa and the likes make those bikes, you know!)... anything with skills less than best all around Novice class winners, dont stop most of the time, when they do, I see it as a safety issue, and with not fearing failure, the riders are able to get a foot DOWN, collect themselves and the bike. The ones that don't or cannot stop with foot down, will stay in beginner while they pick up these skills, else they might hurt themselves in novice. In fact, in novice, I dont (I score it every month) see them "stopping or hopping" either, until they are about to get a fat 5 on something, like mistake around a curve to a rock or obstacle. It is no brainer IMHO, that not stopping, can get ya hurt. But still I just dont see novices do this, unless like me, I might say something when one of our novices are "stuck" somewhere...

    You dont see much of those techniques, until you get to intermediate's class, and I dare say the upper top half of those riders. and IMHO until recently it was mostly former experts that have gotten too old to ride expert safely, or guys like me, that get tired of getting beat by those former experts, that forced myself to keep practicing those technique, so I could also use it in that class. I cant believe you all (no stop supporters) would think I was the second coming, if I had been one to get the rules changed to suit ME, vs me getting better with all the skills we have at our disposal? It just seems SOCCER MOM_ish, hell lets just give everyone the same damn trophy, for whoever bothers to come, and enter the trials?

    Damn, I may be different, I see balancing a stopped bike, hopping, and mostof this stuff a pretty advanced skill. one that I strive to get good at, if you remove that, I feel like after the 1st 10 years of trials, back in 82, then I did all know all there was to do in trials. today we ride over the crap in our club's private rock quarry, you know? I have videos on 8mm of places where the master class riders were doing what intermediates ride, to get to the fun stuff...

    Just sayin.
    #63
  4. Thumpermeister

    Thumpermeister roost maker

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    Yeah, I saw that too. However I have been hearing similar from other UK and Europe trials sources in recent times, where they have had clubs switched over for longer then most here in North America...hence the only real trend to guage so far. Time will tell over here, and this could be only one of many "how to fix trials" inititatives I expect we will see, for better or worse. Like anything else, I doubt any results are universal and completely consistant across the board, but they are somewhat telling at least.

    Hard to measure no doubt, but even if you dispute any gains made out there, you can be sure no clubs have switched from no-stop back to stop rules and seen an increase in participation!
    #64
  5. lamotovita

    lamotovita Ageing Adventurer

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    Many riders seem to think that ribbon is a good substitute for terrain. My feeling is that if we're just gonna ride ribbons we might as well set up events in parking lots. I think that making Trials sections resemble actual offroad riding conditions will be more attractive, and less intimidating, to new riders.

    What do you folks think about having an observer start counting when a rider stops with a foot down, if the observer gets to three before the rider gets going, it's a five. Of course some riders will count faster than others, so the prudent rider will get going quickly.
    #65
  6. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    #66
  7. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Lamotavita does have a point with the stopping with the foot down. I still do not know what people were thinking when this crap started. It should of been at least three pts since at this point the rider has failed to `ride` the section. One thing that could be changed is not to let a rider reposition the bike while stopped and a foot or feet down. I think a rider should have to regain control (balance) and move it while in motion (hopping). Any attempt to move the bike while resting should be a 5. Nothing drives me crazy than to watch a rider sit for three minutes at every section and slowly move it in the line they want all the while sitting on there _ss resting and getting a one!
    So you are 5 sections into an event clean the first four and stall in the 5th trying to clean it and up comes the guy who chooses not to learn to hop just stop and rest and he takes another timely dab and now you are tied?
    That is why I`d rather go backwards than ride this s__t rules that we have. We have lost the point spread between the good and the ugly. Let`s see the lazy rider get through without stopping and get his deserved 5.
    And I know you will like the next idea, The nationals should go no stop for just the clubman and support line. Leave the Experts and Pro`s with indoor rules. Yes let them back up also. We go to see their skill not to penalize the ablity they have. Most of the support rarely hop, you would not have to time them. Best part is we would get rid of most loooooonngg bottle necks and the PROS would actually have time to ride the last loop properly.
    Yes the good ol` boys have ten months to work on that idea. Nothing like a change up in making the boring nationals a riding event instead of sitting and talking all day long. I know some think that`s crazy but it would sure change the overall time in the sections and open it up to the big boys.
    I just need to instill this idea to the right ears and see what happens. Change could be good. Hope this snow melts, I need to polish up on my floaters and rolling nose wheelies. Never know they might be all we got.
    P. S. you gentleman could mention that to your local NATC reps, some of those good ole boys still can think outside the hop, I mean box.
    #67
  8. lamotovita

    lamotovita Ageing Adventurer

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    Ok, you might want to look at my post again, and read it this time (isn't there a little smily face that says pull your head out). I don't think "no stop" is the answer here in the USA , that's why I was suggesting a way to keep riders moving while not making observers penalize riders for stopping.
    #68
  9. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    You make some good points lineaway. The first is you do a good job of what I call "bike dragging". Even if a lower class rider is not forced to hop they use the current scoring to "reposition" their bike. No skill involved there.

    One of the biggest fun killers is long lines. Nobody wants to sit in a line. If you want to have some real fun try a trials with No Stop style sections and NO scorecards. Have the checkers use a clips board and the riders have numbers ala UK style. You will be amazed at how no stop riding and eliminating getting punched ads fun and flow to your day.

    For a National event to move along without bottlenecks the average ride should take 45 seconds. We have tried it at a National and it works.Its all about section design and not making a 45 second rule.

    Just for fun try some math. Take a 45 second ride vs a 90 second ride. If you have just 4 guys in front of you (all day) at a National it adds 108 minutes of sitting in line to your day.

    I never said No Stop was the answer. Never said it was going to make the sport get popular. All I am saying is that an intelligent exchange of ideas can help keep our sport healthy and fun.
    #69
  10. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    Here is an interview with Ot Pi http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=es_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.todotrial.com%2fttactual%2findex-actual-marcototal.htm%3f Scroll down ....the translation is not the best but......He has some good things to say about both BikeTrial and MotoTrial need to be more Dynamic.
    #70
  11. flyinfuzz

    flyinfuzz 2 Quarts low

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    One of the reasons Trials was "no stop" at first was because of the equipment. Bultaco and Montesa clutches wouldn't release and brakes wouldn't stop you. :rofl:rofl. My club-STRA- has had the subject of how to make Trials more appealing to new riders and spectators since it started. There is no one solution,our rider #'s have went up and down over the years reguardless of the equipment,scoring system, or advertising.We seen to get a short lived jump if there is a National event which last maybe a year then it goes back to near the earlier level. In the early 1980's I hosted an event with over 100 riders ,this year they had to use peer scoring on 1 day because of lack of checkers.

    We need a scoring system that is easy for everyone to understand ,fair to all classes,and cuts down on judgement calls on the checkers part.The top riders will allways be the top riders,the bottom end will allways get points. :deal
    #71
  12. darmst6829

    darmst6829 Been here awhile

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    #72
  13. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    IT is worse than that, and too many cant think through the unintended consequences, but even just at the get go, no stop is freaking dumb...

    It is like putting up t-ball poles in the major leagues, and removing the pitcher's skill, all just for saying "we'll have more people able to play pro ball" The whole damn thing is rediculous as trophy's for "each kid in the tournament" soccer-mom mentality.

    SOn of a B.t.h, why do people believe that the "casual" rider will be the "saving graces" to this g*ddam sport?

    IT is not, and will not matter, again, novice is pretty much no stop for 99.98% of novice riders. IF they dont want to get better after novice, then WTF? They can hang out in novice with all the other guys that rather watch football (or it is too hot or too cold, or it is raining) on sunday than ride a trials, LIKE THEY DO 9 out of 12 freaking months a year. Heck some states you only have 8 months of events anyhow...

    Plus these casual riders that refuse to learn or will be BOTHERED to learn the new techniques, they seldom help setup and put on trials, let alone be officers or do any work except show up and ride that one weekend a year, that something else IS NOT going on.

    PLEASE read this and educate yourself, everyone that is involved with trials, past the "I think Ill go this month" mentality! Use your head!

    It is the HARD core trials people that STARTED & keeps trials in the USA going (I would argue, any country) PERIOD. Right now and hopefully forever, trials is an AMATURE sport, there is NOT millions to be made having events, becuase you know damn well that when that happens, trials will cost a crapload to participate in. Look at ANYTHING even going to your local football games, $7 soda pop? $8 cup of beer, ARE you sh*tting me?

    Hard Core people, not only are the club members that are president, and secretary or treasurer and give a lot to a sport and club that they really like and enjoy the hell out of it. Not for MONEY. When able, they are out several days per month clearing brush and setting up sections! So Joe Blow casual rider might happen to get off his girlfriend a come ride...

    PLUS We recruit, train, and help outfit people with seemingly like minded mentality, that it is more fun to challenge your self, than to give to quit because you got beat... We believe trials is more fun than most any other activity. I have other interest, but trials comes first, then the rest.

    WHEN you replace the hard core with people trying to make money on this, trials will DIE. I personally will hate that day.
    #73
  14. Gordy

    Gordy Team Listo

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    :splat....... :lol3


    I hear that they are going to a "no scrub" rule on jumps in MX because everyone can't seem to pull it off. :dunno
    #74
  15. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    In order to move the conversation forward and away from "no stop is freakin dumb" let's talk riding techniques.

    Stop vs No Stop is a trade off in techniques. What skills and techniques are lost vs what is gained between the two riding styles?
    #75
  16. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Again, lets move professional (or even amature sports) back to the stone ages, by removing techniques... Tball stands on home plate, becuase there are only about 94 great & able pitchers in the MLB. No more bumping and checking in Hockey, it is just too freaking scary, you know with all the missing teeth. Hey, lets make the goals bigger and make the goalies stand up (you know technique), that will have a bigger audience for hockey, you know 34 to 38 type scores instead of 2 - 0 we have now?

    Bowling, no more wierd grips and approaches, everyone hold the ball exacly the same, and definitely no spinning the ball, I mean hell I cant seem to get the hang of that crap.

    Pool (billiards) no more english on the cueball, that is just too dang hard to get good at.

    the freaking list goes on and on.

    If the NO STOP is so great, I again EMPLORE you supporters or people that consider it to be the way to go, lets just start a new sanctioning party, that would be parrallel to NATC. After you get that the rule change ruins or does make better, get your standards all figured out, then I know for a fact people might switch, or better yet clubs might decide no stop sat, stop on sunday, let the attendance decide?

    Right now, I cant see it. I hated trials where the "Judge" had the ability (due to judgement calls) to affect your score by 4 points, because he thinks you stopped with foot down, even though clearly (and even on tape) people were NOT. Which many times takes you from from 1st to last...

    The NOSTOP crowd is living in the past, where the bikes and riders weren't even half capable, hell most of the best riders (Bernie, lane leavett, and the rest probably only worked out in a gym after they got full ride sponsors). the rest us are and were out of shape deskjob dwellers, and with the things we can ride take more effort, and means safety, of being able to stop and dab, (eventually I will have fought for safety rule to be able to wipe face or push glasses back on yer face) and not get FAIL'd, cannot be anything but a good thing.

    This stupid ass rule of you cant push your glasses back on your face, with a foot down (like almost off a damn cliff) with sweat streaming in your eyes, without being judged a FAIL, is STUPID as hell for saety sake. FWIW, I stupidly make payments on my lasik surgery well, that was 80% reason why I wanted it. Yeah, that is the kind of dedication hard core trials people that keep clubs alive will do. These people have, that show up for trials, EVERY event, within reason. I also mention I drive 150 miles to and then 150 back home from MY club's site, to compete each 2nd sunday of the month, 300 miles to my "other clubs" I visit when I have the $$. There are people who wont show up when the dang thing is in thier back yard so to speak, they will tell you it is because of it not being NO STOP, I think... whatever.
    #76
  17. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Most riding styles would remain the same. Jap zap, splatters , double blip all would still be used. Nose wheelies, hops, and flick turns would still be used by the skilled rider. The bike draggers would now triple the score that they are used to having.
    Section building would go back to using more natural type sections. Using the tape as the obstacle would be reduced. The points spread would change as the parking lot hoppers lack of riding skill on the `real ` sections would come out of the end of the day. No more of being perfectly lined up before you attempt a hairy line or wasting three minutes before you hammer up a rock wall.
    The overall time of any event would be shortened. I see the scores going up and the number of ties reduced. An event would probably flow better with less lines at the sections.
    :D
    #77
  18. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    It is just about the dumbest statement I have read on a forum, well since the 80s.

    that the guy that can hop/balance his bike will show how "no skill" he has on the trail ride sections (no stop)...

    Did you even engage your brain on this before you posted? that guy that is learning to stop hop and all that "parkin lot" crap, is kicking your ass all the way down the line, because he's working at, and adding to his SKILLS set used in competition, which seems to read that is what you think was dumb. He will (if forced to) also learn and beat your ass even more, at the left over skills, ESPECIALLY since he will divide the time to learn 4 or more FEWER skills to be BETTER at trials,

    Seriously.
    #78
  19. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    While you were posting on the forums in the 80`s. (Now how did you do that?) I was learning the new style of hopping. I was just replying to LOWPSI comment of moving away from dumb. This was an attempt at a discussion of actually riding. You seem to like just one aspect of this sport. If you have read my posts, I can hop and all the fun tricks that go along with not actually riding. So why not tell us all the great benefits of stopping with your foot down. While your at it tell us why trail riding is too easy for you to do? The benefits of you hopping all day to get a clean and some fool on a `96 Beta takes a one in the same section after 5 minutes of manuevering his wheels just so and now we have the start of an all day bottleneck. :evil
    #79
  20. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    3 big things, and sorry I pee'd in your cherios, it is hard to do without being face to face instead of keyboard to keyboard.

    ABout benifits of foot down, I DID EXPLAIN, if nothing else SAFETY! (you beotch about my reading everything you've EVER posted but must have gotten too pissed off to just read my post, JUSt above yours.)

    IF I want to just friggin trail ride, then just friggin trail ride, damn. Why call it a "sport" or even frucking keep scores then? Well to me, I like the competition, apparently most of you guys dont? crap, before we got into trials, we did the "explore colorado" every weekend, 6-8 buddies, left home to ride newly aquired 1969 suzuki 110's. FWIW, you cannot believe the places you CANNOT ride to nowdays, but that is another subject. But, There was no contest, it is not some sanctioned event, no winners or competition. SHeeit. At best it was a fun outing, at worst it was a lot of being with buddies doing nothing. but it had no point, except to explore the friggin terrain/scenery. Nobody spent the previous 3 weekends cleaning limbs, arranging for trophies to be available, keep scores, all this crap, laying out the "course" for the competition. What part of trials and competition does NOT equaL A D#MN trail ride, do you not get?

    I dont just like the "one aspect" of the friggin sport, what you guys cannot seem to fathom is that like friggin any other club or competition, there are skills and rules, and things that are done. Like minded people having fun and competition. Damn. I can only imagine, that 1st guy to thow a hook shot in bowling, or a curve ball in baseball, then everyone going we got to Ban that friggin curve ball!

    No, it is TRIALS enthusiasts, enjoiying a days of riding "trials" or those just glad to be out of the house... If you get a bunch of trail riding buddies, then you have a bunch of trail riding enthusiasts having fun doing whatever it is you do trail riding....

    BUT, half the supposed "crowds" of these riders they all talk about "rushing back" into the sport of TRIALS, when it goes no curve ball, or "NO STOP" are and will, time and time again are those that wouldnt even INVEST the tiny bit of time to learn & practice the new skills to be "competitve" in this sport as it is now, for some reason... THen on top of that, and somehow getting these guys back from the mysitcal woodwork is the saving of trials, bar none?

    I say, it is track record through and through.... if they refuse to try and learn new skills/tricks, you will find that they never have time to practice, never setup or help setup trials sections, or anything else because it is "just too much" to choose from TV, a beer, or trials once a month, year round. I see another trend, ONLY you 40'ish and under crowd believes the way to fix anything is remove any self satisfaction that you could compete and win or compete and lose, and if you get tired of losing, rewrite the rules so you can win, instead of practicing or learning and beating the course or others, with what exists...

    THese same guys show up 2 minutes before the riders meetings, load the bikes and are gone before trophy ceremony, and live of the graces of every hard core enthusiast in the club that DID do all the above.

    I stand by the notion, that without stop and hopping, that is about 5 skills I do work on, plus the basics, plus other skills, every 3 hour ride I do, so without the 5 I have more time to get better at the others, and beat the same people. Bet me.

    Sorry, that is the best part of trials, the people the work, the like minded individuals. Nope, you guys think the BoyScouts/cubscouts should be sewing dresses, playing with barbies, and getting in touch with feelings, so that the girls will be feeing welcome, and sorry, I dont. they have an app (I mean a club) for that crap. Or they need to make one. Nope, it is all about busting up what has been, so the few can take over and make it what they never invested squat in, and feel good.
    #80