No stop USA

Discussion in 'Trials' started by lineaway, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. Gordy

    Gordy Team Listo

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    How about a if you put a foot down and stop, that's a three.

    If you do it twice in a section you get a five. :dunno

    It just doesn't seem right that you can put a foot down and take a lunch break but could very well get a lesser penalty than someone who is attempting something technical (while still riding the bike and keeping the event moving) and they are risking a two or three.

    The score spread would go up and lots of bottlenecks would go away. People with ridiculously high scores would drop down to a class that they could "ride".
    Skills would improve as everyone would soon learn to keep moving with their feet up. Guys who want to balance and hop could still do that.
  2. 10K

    10K Trail Runner

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    :thumb +1
  3. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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  4. Gordy

    Gordy Team Listo

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    It could be, but I don't think so. We have a dick in our club that could be troublesome with this, but for the most part it is pretty damn evident when someone is truely stopped with a foot down.
    They are looking around, waiting for advice, positioning the bike sideways on the pivot foot, etc.

    There is already so much discretionary scoring on going on anyway. That's a whole 'nuther issue. We have non-riders and kids scoring upper classes making calls as to whether an elbow only touched or made a save. :scratch Surely they could be instructed on what the intention of a foot down and stopped means.

    BTW,
    I'm going to work on my balance today. It couldn't hurt! :lol3
  5. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    In this country we probably have a better chance with the foot down for a three than going no stop. I have not heard anything changing with the FIM rules. That seems to be the driving force with the NATC.
    May be we can convince our board to go back to backing up? I have not practiced that in fore ever, talk about a workout. So are you balancing while watching tv close enough to grab a brew. Now that`s talent.
    I was at Bike week in Daytona in `82. Curt Comer was running a booth for cosmopolitan motors, back when they were the Montesa importers. Had a balancing contest , winner got a pair of SIDI boots. Almost 16 minutes on concrete,:1drink just after drinking at the 200 all day. I loved them boots.
  6. Gordy

    Gordy Team Listo

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    :lol3

    Can you do it sober?
  7. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    `I was speaking to a very well versed and connected individual in the North American trials community recently. He knows everyone that is anyone and has decades of Trials involvement. This individual thinks the No-Stop rule change in Britain is a political move to try and disadvantage, or at least even the playing field, against the mainland Europeans in top level competition. Supposedly the last set of rule changes had a similar hidden agenda, and it's happening again.`
    This was a quote from a british forum. Very interesting to see if it pans out. When the FIM let the all day dab rule exist, the reasons were for telivised broadcasts. At the same time it allowed certain riders a chance to stay close in points in case the better rider made a complete failure. This is the reason the rule is flawed.:eek1
  8. lamotovita

    lamotovita Ageing Adventurer

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    Reading this thread has been enlightening. I've come to realize why I so enjoy competing on my vintage bike (Sherpa T). The clutch and brake operation, as well as the additional inertia of the much heavier bike, make stopping in a section impractical and undesireable, so I tend to ride "no stop" regardless of the rules.
    I don't know why I'm surprised to realize that riding a motorcycle through a section is more enjoyable than stopping and dragging a bike through a section:norton.
  9. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    :nortonFor the boys that did not go thru all the rule changes, you were lucky. This sport has had many highs and lows. we went from no stop to eventually stop and hop. When this happened the sport and the bikes were in quite a transition. Our club had almost dried up and blew away. But all of a sudden hopping and backing up was cool and the bikes advanced. We had to practice alot to learn the new moves. Hopping those damn drum braked bikes was work, but you could do it.
    Then the bikes were better the world round guys went crazy. They could keep riding one section forever until they cleaned it, I kid you not. Tahe 20 minutes in a section, blow the last obstacle,(still on a clean) hop backwards till they were lined up again and have a clean 45 minutes later. Now thats a little exagerrated but it happenerd.
    So here come the crazinees, first time clocks, then more time changes. Finally remove the reverse and make the stop count as a one. So check out this craziness.

    one dab is a one
    two dabs is a two
    three dabs is a three
    one stop is a one
    two stops is a two
    three stops is three
    one foot down stop is a two
    one foot down with two stops is a three
    two feet down stop is a three
    bounce sideways whilst moving was a clean
    bounce sideways whilst stationary was a five
    go backwards feet up or down was a five
    Stall the bike feet up is a one
    Stall the bike feet up but take your hands off the bars is a five
    Stall the bike with a foot down is a five
    Stall the bike whilst footing but keep moving was a three
    Take your hand off the bars whilst stationary (I kid you not, this was a rule!) is a five.
    Then try to get someone to score that crap.
    So we tried no stop again. Just so happened we did a national that year, luckily just a 1 day behind a 1 day in colorado. I can not remember if it was when I was trialsmaster or just president of our club. What a crazy day that was, protests that decided riders finishes not just for the day , but the results for the year being the last event. I was one of the guys making or breaking the outcome and it was not joy at all. Trouble was colorado was way relaxed and we went to the letter of the rule as far as educating the scorers.
    So we have the next set of rules that we go by now. As you know by now I hate them, but I just thought it would be fair to show some of the craziness from the past.
    We will wait and see, but taditional no stop with a little benefit of the doubt to the rider on a pause is still the most fair.
  10. grizzzly

    grizzzly The Pre-Banned Version

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    try explaining that to everyone
  11. grizzzly

    grizzzly The Pre-Banned Version

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    You are riding over a log, the skid plate hits hard stops the bike your body falls forward when you hit the handle bars it dislodges the bike and you are able to ride out the exit with out putting a foot down
    Is that a clean or a five
    Ok now picture the same thing but you had to put your foot down to push the bike off of the log
    Is that a one or a five
    Is the answer to those two questions going to come down to weather or not you pissed of the scorer the night before while sitting around the camp fire
  12. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    I would have a ten in each instance for badgering the scorer the night before:rofl
  13. grizzzly

    grizzzly The Pre-Banned Version

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    I thought you got 10 if you didn’t attempt the section and 25 for harassing the checker
  14. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Lineaway

    I'm glad I didnt end up with one more enemy because of the stance or how I post... I like everyone I have ever met, I might not agree with them, but I dont hate anyone, so far, LOL!

    I can agree with you on the dab all day, on the merrit of the upper class riders, but really, probably so little, seems like a waste to try to change the rules. But against the beginners and novices (IMHO) get more out of a foot down, move the bike (if they even can) than squirting off the rock/log/legde at cok-eyed angles, and endng up with broken bones, which I have watched happen a lot, especially with some new riders lately.

    Lastely we had a Jan1 "fun trials" with MATT, in a guys back yard. I read people say it will change things, I tell you we had about 7 sections or so for everyone, and if it was NO Stop, nothing for the anything but novice to ride.

    Ground is a premium, some clubs dont know how scarce it is, we at AVTA might lose our riding area, which pretty much means extinction of the club, you know? all because we dont own the ground, ground sells, then poof, we're done.

    Thanks about the mention, about the CRTC, I did work myself to achieve it, and maybe there are others that could beat me easily, didnt go?

    Yeah I think CRTC is close to being set & put out information... I rode with Dale & Jason carpenter (they are both much better riders than me, BTW) and while eating chili, they did say almost ready to post the information on dates and the new stuff.

    FWIW, & CRTC will be slightly different this year, we tried to recruit Nebraska, they didnt have anyone they felt would travel or make use of the regionals, so they've declined...

    But Texhoma Trials Club, (Tishomingo area club) has stepped up, they will host rounds 1&2 this year, as thier Sooner Cup on the last sat of March, and sunday April 1. More info will be forthcoming... This means one more 2 day round, for a total of 5 events this year in total. hoping this also will help some of the traveling issues for all the clubs (except for AVTA which travels to all of them each year) those other fair weather riders will now have a couple more close events... (now of course I am teasing there)...

    But Texhoma site has posted this info, http://www.texhomatrialsclub.com/news.php

    & I assume as soon as Jason feels everything is SET and confirmed, there will be information on all 5 club's websites, I think CRTC has a website, but I have lost the direct link.
  15. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    I didnt touch on "Bike Draggers" in that last post, and before I go too far, what do you mean by bike draggers?

    problem is, to me, and how the heck to change it without makeing a "class" for every individual?

    Bike dragger, to me means a guy that moved up from his accomplished & beating all in that last class they graduated from... lower class for 2 years, and of course is under 30 years old, hehehee..

    Else you need to convince that bike draggers (if it is more than one section, I think) that he/she should sandbag back down a class? Eventually nobody has to tell them, if they aren't gaining on the skills it takes, usually you just get sick and tired of dragging and wearing your arse out each month.

    For clarity, the class I ride is technically misleading class name, and I only see it being remedied, when Sir Dustin Land and or the other top riders like him, lol... get older and cannot ride master/pro like they can now. When that time comes, THen they will need a class that is between Expert, and Master, for OLD Goats, and then it should be named Sr Expert, and Sr Expert that is now, should be senior Intermediate or Sr Clubman class, which it is. Some clubs try making Sr Expert ride the easier EXPERT class sections, but mostly SrEx has a slightly harder split than Intermediate
    (I hate the class name Intermediate if nothing else having to type it out, LOL)

    So for future bike draggers, Like me, if I was in my prime, in 20's or 30's, if I was to leave Intermediate class and try to move up to EXPERT. Im going to be dragging the bike a lot, as I learn what skills to hone, and yet compete. So when I ride and you show up and complain about bike draggin, you are essentially (theoretically please I am trying to lay out a story, not complain about any remarks as such, OK?) potentially disparaging at theroetical me, because I cant ride everything you think I should without having much difficulty, but Im at least not sandbaggin back in the lower class, and lastly enjoy it enough to show up each month, maybe at many nationals, or regionals, and or seperate club's events.

    again this is just a theoretical deal, I will someday (I hope) be in good enough shape that I feel like attempting EXPERT again. WIth my short leggs and fat ass, though, you hardly ever get to see me draggin through, because I am too worn out, anddont have the stamina to drag my ass without the bike, lol. BTW, Hopping and crap, tires the hell out of me, let alone draggin my bike through a section for a 3... now if you set a foot down, with the rule you want, I might as well stay home, IMHO getting a 3 before i get to the "section obstacle" is going to discourage me from attempting that class at all, if you see what I mean there? Yet at the same time, I cannot say "Gee Rick (Land)" sure isnt fair that you ride so much better than I, that we need to rewrite the rules and re do all the sections, so that I have a better chance of beating your results, with my leser ability and stamina... dont you agree?

    (no it hasn't happened because Im all but 46 in 3 days, yeah I'm somewhat fat, and it would just be me dragging the bike for a while, which I dont have the strength, or fitness to do, ATM.)

    So we're at the impass here. Does the sport lose me? (not doe you care if "I" quit trying, what are we going to do with everyone eventually that reaches a plateau, like I have for the 2nd time in 35 years of riding?

    This IMHO is a crux that has to be figured out as well, for the SPORT in general. Around me, we thought we solved the problem of old best riders moving back we have former 20year top "master riders" you know that are aged over 60 in our club, that with eyesight, age in general that Amature is a fun class to compete in....

    and having up and coming great riders not having to directly score/compete agains the old age yet treacherous former top riders, so we created the "Senior Class" which at first was just a scoring loop or subset, to keep me from hindering or hurting "Joe or Jo Up&comming" quest of climbing the ranks from being killed figuratively by falling rocks like me. AKA: Learning to ride Intermediate, beating his or her peers, not discouraged from having to beat me, until I am no longer fit enough to ride intermediate.
  16. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    I started the `Bike Dragging` thing from LOWPSI posts about the guys that spend forever wth the all day dab while repositioning the bike and /or do it two or more times in a section. That part of our rules is what drives me crazy with the all day dab. If that became a 5 again and them boys either drop to a class they can ride, learn to ride or finally get the scores that they deserve.
    Since the safety feature of the all day dab, our club has gone crazy making the lower class sections way too hard. Everyone has got the attitude of just use a foot and move the bike. I`m like if I can`t easily clean a lower class section somebody has lost their whole perspective on how or why it should be. Lately we have been losing riders that have been around a long time, and it is because it was no longer fun.
    On the other hand our Champ class is now way too hard, but we have `a` rider that has become quite good. Most of the old champs moved down to the new `expert`. As you can tell we are at a crossroads with section severity and class structure.
    So between my hatred of the `rules` and our club imploding using poor logic. I thought watching Britains try at fixing all problems with going back to `pure` trials an interesting approach. So I think now it is a wait and see from this side of the pond.
    Well I hope the AVTA keeps going and does not lose your riding area. That sure can suck as we have lost quite a few of our best places over the years. It is about time, I quit posting so much and start riding again. I`ve had a lack of ambition since I still have a yard full of snow. Most of the guys on here live on the `dry ` side of the mountain.
    Sting, hopefully I can make one of the CRS events this year. I just can`t see going back east for the nationals this year, maybe colorado. This thread has about tired me out. Hop Or Not!:lol3
  17. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Dont go all "tired out" already, lol we're finally having a good dialogue, imho. I've at least seen your points, hope you seen some of my counter points... AFAIK, you are posting at what should be past sundown, lol, which should be bench racin time anywho :freaky.

    I post a sneak in or 2 at work, usually with my phone transcribing via Google's voice to text thing... while I'm waiting for "windows or something I am babysitting to restart" or change it's operational status, so Im not missing any riding time posting either, lol. :lol3 and now it seems like midnight, with sun being down since what, about 5pm? (its 9:33 here)
  18. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    I`ll come up with more later, I had to pick my kid up from BB practice. Damn non -motorized sport took out his ankle, he had surgery Nov.8th. Now our favorite she devil in the club needs surgery from sleddin` go figure.:fall
  19. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    NP, I thought, you mean for good, not just last night. :wink: lol

    I still have to say, bike draggin is a part of trials, in the 70's Dad dragged his new green tanked Suzuki picture from google, his was Green BTW [​IMG]

    Draggin graduates to multi dabbing, then to single dabbing then clean. I think until you lose heart (or get hurt like me) you cannot stop me from attempting to ride better.

    IMHO there is a fine line, and I am not so damn "tough" mentaly, that if I was getting last, beatup, hurt, plus the normal worn the frick out, month after month, I too would probably take up another sport eventually, but definitely Trials has been my sport for so long, I think if I could still ride amature and place, Ill still ride compared to any other sport I just give up on, more or less because it wasnt trials!

    I believe that it doesnt matter what sport, if you are even slightly competitive and not just a "shark" (you know extra good and like cherry picking wins, money or what have you) That improvement is enough satisfaction to justify the effort, time and costs we or at least I put into it.

    When I played 'pool' I was really really into it for about 2 years, because for 2 years I improved, so it was satisfying to see if I could finally beat people in the bar-leagues, that I couldnt even get 2 shots in, even just friday night social games, a month before. when I quit, I wasn't getting any better, in fact it was fun for 3 months (tops) because of the drinking and get together times, with these team mates and also fellow competitors. But to me drinking and my skills dippin, it became a "trail ride" where outcome wasnt the goal, it was social. after a while other things easily distract you to give them a try...

    Im not there yet with trials, but I am getting older, and with age you know... I hope I like shuffle board, lol becuase if I had ever listened to everyone, I would have taken better care of myself, as I never thought I would live this long, ha ha.
  20. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    That is the "problem" with trials, or maybe the term is symptom? Example, Riders cant do expert anymore due to physical or what have you, then they move back... BUT then, they influence how hard the sections are for the class they moved back to. In reality, the class he was IN, probably needed to be tamed back, or something. Right now expert and master is one HELLUVA jump above intermediate around here, it is not FUNNY at all!

    I honestly think we need (around here) a Semi-Expert class, LOL. like I said though, it is getting to where I feel how dare I even I think, that they need to create another class just because I want one? But I dunno. I think others feel the same way, expert is not so big a jump to master, usually I see just less room or like you say, more tight tape for masters over the same EXPERT stuff.

    I dont dare get hurt doing this sport, that in reality I should have been socking all this money and time into some form of retirement, instead of pissing it away having all this fun... I dont dare lose my job due to injury, so I still am scared of Expert, as it still has some pretty big stuff IMHO. Tight stuff didnt bother me, but lots of the EXPERT stuff, I just dont see how they can get up that stuff, yet they do, and I cant, be it mental or what not.

    It also helps when you ride with groups of people BETTER than you, when practicing, and I dont have that opportunity. Dad is pretty savy, and motivational for me, but neither of us will on our own, just try big stuff, like say Josh Nutsch, or Luke or Seth Grey, (people near me, but still 3 hours drives to see).