Norra 2013

Discussion in 'Racing' started by Strong Bad, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. az45

    az45 Adventurer

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    If you miss a turn with a roll chart, you go back to the turn. If you have GPS, you could find another route or cut through to see the trail as it would be marked on your GPS.


    I can glance at a GPS to see where I'm going. A road book requires looking at the symbols, then looking at the odometer.

    There were lots of races before GPS, but the courses were marked or there was no course. <b>This is not a tribute to Dakar or Rally racing, this is a tribute to off road desert racing</b>.

    Its not that I'm worried about my capabilities, its the fact you are trying to make it a bike Rally. The only thing "Rally" about NORRA is that there are stages. This is a Desert Race with stages.
  2. roadracer

    roadracer Been here awhile

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    You guys are all riled up!

    Hoggie, can you ask them to disclose the mileage of the specials? I was planning on running without pit support and I don't want to be surprised by a 210mi special once we're down there.

    Thanks!
  3. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    I'm not sure what "bike" has do do with this. The roadbook and secret course are just as much a car thing as a bike thing. It's just not a traditional North American off-road thing.

    I know what some of the regular Baja guys want and think the race should be. And I know what some of the NORRA people think it should be. What you want and what they want are two different things. NORRA is trying to ease the traditional Baja crowd into a different type of off-road racing, one small step at a time. The main theme of the event is Vintage off-road. A secondary theme is Rally, which is why they use that word in describing the event. It's pretty clear now that they have tried it, the traditional baja crowd loves the somewhat relaxed multi-day stage aspect of rally. This year they will get a TINY taste of rally navigation.

    I have yet to hear any of the American car or bike guys who have raced a roadbook event say they didn't love the navigation challenge. I hear plenty of negative comments from people who have never raced such an event.
  4. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    I'll do what I can. But from what I've seen of the course this year, there won't be any big gas range surprises like that.
  5. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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  6. az45

    az45 Adventurer

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    I'm the traditional Baja crowd and I love the event. I heard stories about the first race from Dick Cepek at my dinner table when I was a kid. I drive a period correct 3 time Baja(2 OA) 1000 winning car. I have a very strong appreciation for Baja racing.

    You ride a late model moto in a vintage desert race and are making assumptions that whats good for you is good for everybody else.

    I'm not riled up, I'll be there having a good time no matter what! :1drink
  7. cross-country

    cross-country .

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    Cheers, nobody likes a surprise when the bike-prep-shit-storm is in high gear but I do appreciate getting the info earlier than we would have otherwise. In the end, if it's only 5% of the course, connecting the dots over 50 miles of track should be pretty easy......even for a knuckle dragging desert racers. :lol3
  8. az45

    az45 Adventurer

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  9. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    I haven't been to the NORRA race since 2010, and I'm not going this year. And I'm not making any assumptions of good or bad, I'm just informing as best I can. NORRA is pretty slow at getting this type of information out, so I'm trying to help.

    I've known for a long time that Strong Bad and plenty of others would not like this type of change. But it's not me doing it, it's NORRA. I'm not a member of NORRA and I have no decision making powers over them.

    I did tell Ken at NORRA that the sh*t would hit the fan as soon as this was announced, and he said "bring it on".
  10. az45

    az45 Adventurer

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    You've been once and your not going this year?
    Why are you lobbying for it if you know its going to create a problem?
    Will no GPS make it more fun?

    If you're a hard core rally guy, just leave your GPS at home. If your a vintage guy, ride a vintage bike with a roll chart. If you're both, use both.

    The car guys will have the biggest issue with this, so they should make it for the bikes only.

    Ken and the staff have enough to do with out adding in one more timing/scoring dynamic.
  11. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    Wait....what????? You add your personal agenda to NORRA and you aren't even going to show up??? WHAT THE FUCK??? If you aren't even going to be part of it, maybe you should stop screwing it up for those of us who are. Jesus Scott really, what the hell are you doing???? Bending Ken's ear on rally stuff and now trying to back peddle and blame it generically on "NORRA" and you aren't a member and have no official position.....

    I guess you guys don't realize what a huge advantage it gives two seat cars and how bad it rat fucks the single seat guys. Good thing its only going to be 20 miles, but the idea is what is out of place.
  12. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    It was lots of fun, but I enjoy a different aspect of racing more these days.

    To some, dirt, rocks, sand, and bumps are problems in racing, for others they are the challenge that is the essence of the the race. The same goes for a secret unmarked course, roadbook, and multiple stages. They are only problems if you chose to look at them that way.

    I quit "lobbying" NORRA over a year ago when I started my Diabolical Rally project. Now I help NORRA understand the ins and outs off this type of rally format, help them implement the aspects they choose to take on, and try to educate everyone on how it can work and how best to prepare for it. It would actually help me if they dumped the whole roadbook thing. But as long as they are going to do it, I'd like to see them get it right. And I'd like to help you guys see the positive aspects.

    It can, if you choose to see navigation as one more challenge in the race that you will overcome. Does dust, the smell of gasoline, early morning wakeups, bumpy roads, and all the "crap" that comes at you in a typical Baja race make it fun? For an outsider that stuff sounds worse than hell, but for a desert racer it's why you do it.

    For 95% of the race, that's the way it is. Is 5% too much to try out?

    Apparently there have been enough car guys looking forward to the navigation challenge to convince Mike to throw in that 5%. And I suspect there are a few bike guys who won't like it, at least until they try it. So I still don't see this being a bike specific thing.

    The timing and scoring are exactly the same as far as I know.
  13. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    My agenda isn't to push them to do it, it's to help them get it right if they choose to do it. I asked if they needed me for anything during the race, and they said no. I put all that work into the roadbooks and GPS files over the years and I don’t even get a free hotel room! I agree, WTF!
    Seems a bit "strong" for such a tiny piece of the course. I'm a helper just like many of the other helpers that are not racing it. I think you're giving me more power and credit (or blame) for this than I deserve. Mike and Ken and all the others are big boys who make their own decisions. They chose, all on their own, to provide roadbooks, call it a rally, and not allow prerunning long before I even knew of the event. I did point out some loopholes and flaws with their initial system, so I guess I deserve a tiny bit of credit, maybe 5% of the 5%. I knew this heat was coming before I made the post, but it's still best for everyone to know sooner rather than later, and to understand how best to deal with the technical aspects.

    As I pointed out before, in many circumstances a roadbook is better than a GPS. If you're prerunning, then you might know where the nasty hazards are, but prerunning is not allowed. The roadbook tells you exactly where they are, and what they are. The GPS file doesn’t have that information. There are advantages and disadvantages both ways.

    Doesn’t a 2-seater with a co-dog and a GPS provide a big advantage over a single-seater with only a GPS? It’s not clear at all which puts the single-seater at a greater disadvantage, GPS or roadbook.

    Personally I don’t think one is “better” than the other. They are just different ways to find your way to the finish.
  14. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    Strong Bad

    The more you say the bigger ASS you become.
    You have been around a log time you claim to
    Know a lot of people.
    You should know how it works
    Mike likes the $$$ the Modern vehicles and bikes bring in
    And they will Dictate the way of NORRA
    In the Future (IMO)
    Look at the Number of modern vehicles and motorcycles
    compared to vintage Modern out numbers them by quite a bit

    Think what you want to think but the mighty dollar will prevail
    Or NORRA will fade away again

    Good luck on building the race truck
    It looks like it's coming along great
    We will have to have a beer or two in Mexico
  15. Idahombre

    Idahombre Likes easy girls!

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    Not much is gonna get solved here. Go to the source. I have a Noob question to anyone who has Dakar experience or other similar races. I've noticed that usually the racers in Dakar are wearing these big heavy jackets with what I guess is body armor underneath. Isn't that hot? Wouldn't a roost protector with elbow pads me more comfy? My guess answer to my question is, they don't want to get dehydrated with their sweat evaporating. So they create a little micro climate under the big jacket and cool off with vents in the jacket. Just a guess. Is it better to run a jacket in a race like the Mexican 1000, with possible upper 90 degree temps? Thanks.
  16. Racersonly

    Racersonly n00b

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    Hog Wild, This is my first post in this forum so please excuse my ignorance but wouldn't this "New" form of your version of road books possibly help you out in the long run? I'f i'm not mistaken, you run a Dakar like prep deal that people hire you to help with the use of road book navagation. Personally I think it's great for all those guys that travel halfway around the world who have never used it and Dakar has pretty much used it exclusively. NORRA on the other hand is titled "The happiest race on earth" due to it's simplicity and relaxed atmosphere. I remember you talking about this over on RDC quite a while ago and SUGGESTING that they should go this route but I don't remember you mentioning anyone at NORRA contacting you about getting something going.

    Personally I think its a conflict of interest for you to be talking NORRA into going this route because you could benifit. This is NOT the history of off road racing, this is the history of Dakar and rally which is not what NORRA is. I'm pretty sure NORRA thinks this is a great idea because your talking them into it. Having been involved in off road racing since the late 70's watching my dad race and also been involved in one way or another with all 3 of the NORRA events, I think there is only a SMALL group of people who really like this idea.

    As for 2 seaters having an advantage, it is a HUGE advantage! Co-rider can have his face buried on the road book calling out turns and hazards while the driver can keep his nose glued to the race track. Personally I like the GPS with no markings, that way you still have to keep your eyes open for hazards but if there is no road book no one has a huge advantage. Rory Ward
  17. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    I somewhat disagree with this. He's a good guy with a lot of passion for his views. And I actually hope the modern vehicles DON'T drive the direction of NORRA. The race is super cool because of the vintage vehicles, people, and course, and the somewhat laid back multi-day stage format. The roadbook and secret course is cool for those who get it, and not so cool for some others. I actually don't care if they drop the roadbooks or go 100% roadbooks only (because other roadbook events are coming to fill the void). I do care if they only do it sort of halfway, which is what they have been doing. It doesn't make sense to do both roadbooks and GPS and have the course known ahead of time.
  18. bajaboundmoto

    bajaboundmoto Been here awhile

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    Simple question -- Approx how many single seat cars will be at Mex1k?

    On the flip side... bike guys take a way bigger risk taking their eyes off the trail than a 1-seat car guy does when looking at the roadbook or gps. Bike guys must slow down or pick the time the look very carefully.
    So... big deal the car guys (very few) have to back off the throttle a tiny bit for a few miles to study. Seems fair.

    I have done a 6-day rally with only roadbook (pre GPS days) and loved it!! It's so much fun!
  19. beechum1

    beechum1 Dandole Gas al Burro

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    Both east coast guys I chased for last year wore cordura type jackets and swore by it. I've not done it like that but I can see the benefits and its been explained to me that it exactly as you've answered. Which I believe is KLIM's explanation also.
  20. az45

    az45 Adventurer

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    There are about the same amount of single seaters as vintage bikes.