Norra 2013

Discussion in 'Racing' started by Strong Bad, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. johnson357

    johnson357 Bad Monkey Racing

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    Ummmm.....this could turn into the same kina question as which is the best oil to use :lol3.....but would love to hear it, trying to decide myself which to do. To the roadbook, GPS, black helicopter, bigfoots, etc......everybody has to race the same course, "challenges are neither good nor bad just challenges"
  2. bajaboundmoto

    bajaboundmoto Been here awhile

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    Wow, lots of fired-up posts here.

    A few thoughts...
    - The new section did not make the cost of the event go up $800 nor did it make the fun-factor of your crews diminish. It's 5%, no biggie. You could write those course notes on your gas tank or a few small sheets of paper on your bars. And nothing is going to change for your crews. The meeting spots will still be known and simple.
    - If your crew is heading south days early they should be stoked! It's a non-issue for them unless they've never been south and are clueless anyway. It will be super easy to figure out. I bet if you tell HW in private that your buddies are going to be watching you pass by Scorpion Bay or Gonzaga and will those places be on the course he'd probably tell you "yes" or "no". I mean really, how many places are there your buddies are gonna go to hang a few days? Not many.
    - I do not think we need to know the length of each special but more like IF the special is over 100-120 miles and IF there will be a Mag7 in there. Again, not difficult to overcome.
    - Jonah Street practided for YEARS with a goofy ass homemade roll chart holder he whipped up out of scrap wood! Why are people buying all this fancy shit? I used the $60 plastic 6" manual holder from Acerbis. I have a few of them new here too if anyone needs.
    - BajaDad likes to get all "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" all the time.
    - Yes the Dakar riders wear armor suits with jackets over. Many have drinkers built into the jacket. Most carry supplies and stuff in jacket. I don't think anyone wears a bum bag. Yes a jacket seems hot but you stay more hydrated being sweaty rather than the wind blowing your skin dry.
    - Personally I'd rather see Norra throw some curves at the long time Baja racers by adding little bypasses to the typical routes everyone knows, and make it count with a penalty for not doing it. In '10 the actual route bypassed the whoops (off to the side) before the SF dump, but very few of us did it. Guys just bombed thru the whoops like they know. Lame.

    Everyone relax, it's going to be simple, it'll be fun, and IMO, HW is just the messenger.
  3. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    SB, He is a GOOD guy !!!!
    but drops the F bomb WAY to much!!!!!

    If you can find me in LA Bay I will buy you a beer !!!!:freaky
    BBM what up ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Here is an example why I like Roadbooks over GPS From what I saw last year
    Some of the guys with out the Roadbook last year Bomb up the Asphalt at the start of Day three and did not get in the sandwash.
    ( They did not know to turn left into it )
    They just read the GPS and twisted the Gas harder. That was a HUGE advantage But it was not the course.......

    Roadbook is so much more FUN and makes you think more
  4. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    Rory, first of all, I appreciate the questions and the respectful way you present them.

    The roadbook stuff is not new, it's just new to most Baja racers. I don't have training events anymore. I refer people to Jimmy Lewis or Darren Skilton for that (they don’t know yet that it’s a money loosing activity). But I have supplied roadbooks to Jimmy and Darren for that type of training, and I do charge a bit to prepare, print, and deliver those roadbooks. It's a loosing deal for me if you look at the time versus the money, but I enjoy contributing to the success of our guys going to Dakar, so I keep doing it.

    Yes NORRA going the roadbook route might help me a bit, but it could also hurt me. I'm planning an event that will compete for some of the same people who race NORRA. So I suppose my roadbook and other work for NORRA is helping send my own potential future customers to my competitor. But I don't look at it that way. I have a good job that pays well. All this race related stuff has been for fun, as a hobby. Whatever is fun, that's what I do!

    NORRA had roadbooks right from the start, before I even knew what NORRA was. When I entered their first race (in large part because it was rally format with roadbooks), I saw their roadbook on the website weeks before the event. It was in a format that could not be used in a bike style roadbook holder, and it was not in the somewhat standard format used around the world. So I offered to convert their roadbook into the proper format, print a bunch of copies, and bring them to registration so those with roadbook holders would have something useable. They said yes to that, and I’ve been helping them with the roadbooks ever since.

    Eventually I got involved with cleaning up their GPS files (at their request) because they were having problems and they also were not providing files for those using Garmin units. That effort went well, and I’m sure it benefited everyone using a GPS. So, I even help them support those using GPS! Hell, even I used a GPS a little bit when I raced it. It was allowed, so I did it!

    Last year they asked me to find a new course route in an area they had problems. I did that too, and that section will be used this year as well. That had nothing to do with roadbooks or rally specific stuff. They just needed a course fix, and I knew how to get it done quicker than them.

    All that work to help you guys have a good time, and all I get is a hammering for something I only had a small hand in!

    I think I covered this pretty well above and in earlier posts, but I’ll go over it again briefly. I think you’re way overestimating my power over them. I have spent a few HUNDRED hours helping them over the years, and I’ve MAYBE profited at best a couple hundred bucks from it. Hardly an effort to line my pockets! And if that were my motivation, what would be wrong with helping them and getting a benefit back from it? I won’t deny I would love to see more people get into rally racing and go do Dakar. It’s a SUPER cool event that everyone that can pull it off should do!

    Again, they planned to use the basic rally format way before I came along. And they have been telling me from the start, they want to move further in that direction but they have to take it slow to allow everyone to learn.

    I think you’re projecting your vision of the ideal race onto them (just like you’re accusing me of doing). The multi-day stage format was never the standard for off-road here. Yet NORRA wanted to do it that way right from the start, way before I came along. So it seems they are not trying to DUPLICATE the past, they are picking a path that is focused on vintage, but includes new and old ideas. How is that my fault? Remember their motto, it goes something like this: “Honoring the Past, Forging the Future”. I don’t think that “future” word means the history of off-road.

    I think most people don’t really care, they just want to race. Here on ADV, the majority seem to be in favor of it. On RDC it’s probably the other way. And I’d guess many if not most of those against it would enjoy it if they approached it with a positive attitude and gave it a fair chance. I don’t think the small section this year is enough of a taste to really understand it, but that’s just me.

    Exactly like a co-driver with a GPS! And I’m not sure you’re aware, the roadbooks do not include curves in the road. They pretty much only include intersections, major hazards, and major things like start and finish points and some gas stations. Your “huge advantage” comment makes me think maybe you have no idea what the roadbook actually has in it, and maybe have never even used one that was done in this type of cross-country rally format. You do understand with a GPS the co-driver can call out the sharpness of every curve, in dust, mountain terrain and otherwise “blind” situations, yet with a roadbook you don’t have that information. So a GPS probably gives a 2-seater a bigger advantage over a single-seater than a roadbook does. You may have mistakenly made MY point.
  5. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    I'll go for that beer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The race car in the NORRA display at the Mint:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I think it is sad that most of the Rally bike guys around here don't even know who Frank "Scoop" Vessels was to Baja or Offroad.
  6. Racersonly

    Racersonly n00b

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    Your “huge advantage” comment makes me think maybe you have no idea what the roadbook actually has in it, and maybe have never even used one that was done in this type of cross-country rally format. You do understand with a GPS the co-driver can call out the sharpness of every curve, in dust, mountain terrain and otherwise “blind” situations, yet with a roadbook you don’t have that information. So a GPS probably gives a 2-seater a bigger advantage over a single-seater than a roadbook does. You may have mistakenly made MY point.[/QUOTE]

    Just to correct your last statement, I was the naviagtor for Collins Motorsports last year and had my nose in the "Road book" for 4 days, I can tell you from experience that they marked sharp corners, G-outs and dangers throughout the book. The GPS only shows the trail, not ANY of the hazards. The book is a bigger advantage than the GPS. The only good thing about the GPS is if you get turned around it's easier to find the course than to back track and look through the book to see what you missed. The idea behind NORRA is for people to enjoy the 4 day rally experience. personally i'd like to be drinking adult beverages after each stage with fellow racers than sitting back in my room trying to put tomorrows road book together. Road books have there place in rally's, my feeling is it is not for NORRA.

    I respect your knowledge of the rally format and the help you give to American teams racing afar but PERSONALLY moving to this type of system for a race that is suppose to be more about the enjoyment of Baja. Enjoying some good old fashioned racing on a more toned down level than the Baja 1000 is the goal, especially since the majority of the guys racing are either retired racers, weekend warriors or enthusiasts.......not what i would call a stacked field of professional racers.
  7. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    I can truly appreciate that. And it would be great if everyone actually looked at it that way. When I race it, that’s how I looked at it. But guys to my left and right were WAY more serious and got all worked up about all kinds of issues. And that split in attitudes continues today. "Toned Down" and "Race" are hard things to combine.

    Too many get their serious race faces on and attack this race as a "win at all cost" deal. A Baja newcomer decides not to race a second time because he sees that the regulars take advantage of their local knowledge by taking shortcuts. A guy that solos the whole thing on a vintage bike comes away with nothing at the finish, while another who trailered his vehicle through much of the race walks away with a trophy. A retired guy says screw the rules and preruns the course because he can get away with it, while others follow the rules and loose because of it. A tech savvy guy takes the early released GPS tracks and uses Google Earth to plan off-course creative lines to gain an advantage, while others want the race determined in the dirt, not on the computer. Some of this is fine at other events, but for whatever reason NORRA has rules against some of it, but no means to enforce those rules.

    In my mind they should enforce each rule they have, or get rid of it. If they want to level the playing field a bit to attract more competitors, then do it. Otherwise get rid of the rules that restrict the creative planners. If they want that laid-back attitude throughout the race, then they need to do something to mellow out the more serious people.

    At the moment they are leaning towards stronger enforcement of their current rules, at least relative to the course. That's why there is a "secret" section. And it's hard to keep it secret if the GPS tracks are provided ahead of time, which is partly why the roadbook comes into play.
  8. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    So TRUE and VERY WELL SAID :clap
  9. baja-chris

    baja-chris Adventurer

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    Scott, I do not think it says anywhere that prerunning is not allowed. In fact Mike Pearlman took several racers on a prerun recently, Walker Evans and a couple of the Vegas guys. I guess if you want to prerun you have to ask Mike for the map.



  10. baja-chris

    baja-chris Adventurer

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    I've always wondered how many of the Dakar bike deaths were caused by the rider looking at a roadbook instead of at the track. Of course nobody will ever know.



  11. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    That is my point pre-running is a blast but if it's not available for everyone it should be available for no one
    There's no money at stake in this event so What would the vantage be of going ? for bragging rights amongst your buddies
  12. baja-chris

    baja-chris Adventurer

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    Because it's FUN. It's impossible to enforce a no-prerun policy in Baja when the roads are open to the public and in many areas there is only one practical route that NORRA will use for the Vintage equipment.

    You don't even need a 2013 map to prerun.

    You can take any one of the previous NORRA gps maps (2010, 2011, 2012), use them to prerun and end up seeing a high percentage of the course they will use in 2013. There are only so many places you can run Vintage equipment down that narrow peninsula.
  13. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    Vintage is overrated. The last time I looked in class XI bug was a class XI bug
    100 %of those cars in the race can go Everywhere
    If a class XI Volkswagen bug Can Race the score Baja 1000 course and finish
    Then all these vehicles that at one time where top level race cars
    Can do the same just a little bit slower
    It's funny hearing all this stuff about vintage!

    I love the history of Baja And the vehicles that have raced up and down the peninsula
    I was in the 1969 Mexican 1000 In a Two seat buggy with my dad
    I love seeing all these older cars Resurrected from the boneyard to live again
    There's no reason to be Arguing over anything this is a fun event

    Any race organization can and should enforce the rules
    And yes you can enforce the no pre-run rule
    Don't give out the map until the night before the event to anyone!
    Don't supply GPS files to anyone
    And if anyone is caught using a GPS there disqualified
    If anyone is caught free running 30 days prior to the event there disqualified with no refund
    It only takes A few times To happen and people will stop doing it
    But back to the real thing at hand
    This is a fun event let's keep it that way whether you use GPS or roadblock Everyone needs to drive and ride safely and make it to the big party at the end
  14. Johnnymoto

    Johnnymoto Adventurer

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    When I was six years old my mom told me that "life isn't fair, and the sooner that I adjusted to that the happier I would be" or something pretty close...

    the guy that's going nuts over placing/position, perception of being slighted etc will always have something to talk/bitch about, and thats cool, thats his program, but you'll never fix that with rules as there is always wiggle room, interpretation, and opportunity to straight up cheat.

    I used to race in the Triumph Thruxton Cup, its a spec road race class with AHRMA, three guys had cheater engines, the rest of the field did not, we could have asked for tear downs yadda yadda, instead we just didn't respect the guys with the motors. No bullshit, no tension, they were just looked down on and they had to live with themselves. We are our own judges and have to live with our own program.

    If you shortcut you know you did, and if you place well as a result and take a bit of anothers glory as a result you own that too. Thats all the motivation that 90+% of amateur hobby racers need.

    That's my $.02 - Happy Wednesday - Can't wait for the race. I bet it'll be good times.
  15. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    Strange, it used to be in the rules, but now it's not. I'll check and see if that's what they intend.

    I know about that recent prerunning. I watched them every step of the way. Fortunately they did not give away the secret part of the course, at least as far as I could tell. But the secret is already leaking out, so I guess as usual some get an unfair advantage.

    If they really want to allow prerunning, and they don't want to be seen as giving favortism, then they need to release the course way ahead of time. They are going in the opposite direction with the release of the course, which is what's frustration to me. They need to decide one way or the other which approach they are taking instead of going half way in two different directions.

    Nearly every death in recent times has been explainable, at least to some extent. For example my friend Elmer Symons who died in Dakar 2007. He died taking a bit of a shortcut.

    How many people die or are seriously hurt in Baja prerunning, or chasing a race because there's time pressure for the crews, or because the hazards are not marked in the official GPS file, or because some driver is following the GPS line in blinding dust at crazy fast speeds? I don't think traditional Baja racing should be banned or avoided because of these things. Racing is dangerous no matter how you do it. If racing were 100% safe, I'd loose interest!
  16. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    I think you are having LSD flashbacks from the 60's! :lol3:lol3:lol3 Do you have any idea how many times there isn't a single Class 11 car finish the Baja 1000 when it runs to La Paz (or Cabo)?


    Again the flash backs must have kicked in. You think NORRA (or even SCORE for that matter) has the manpower to track down every bike or car that is on "the race course" (otherwise know as access roads) between races to make sure it isn't a racer rather than a regular schmo just out having fun??? Hey I'm driving down to Loreto next week, if I go down through Coco's will I be pre-running?? What if I want to visit my friends Mike & Cholie (former owners of Del Borracho bar in Loreto) out in San Juanico am I pre-running if I go out through San Ignacio? What about Tim Morton??? Is he pre-running when he gives a tour within 30 days of a race? Any idea how much time Cam Steel spends playing in Baja?? Is that all pre-running???

    No road books, no GPS, no course markings. Get to the check points where you come out at the highway any way you can/want. Like it was in 1969.
  17. johnson357

    johnson357 Bad Monkey Racing

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    Ok here is something to help us remember that this is suppose to be fun too.
    [​IMG]

    Plus I'm selling them in the Flea Market to raise me some travel money and I'll give a free one to each one of you guys if you stop bitching at each other, I hate it when mommy and daddy fight.
  18. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    No fight, just a friendly discussion of interesting issues. I'm quite sure everone has learned a few helpful things through this discussion. BTW, we're not mommy and daddy, unless the others want to admit they are girls. :D It's more like brothers wrestling!
  19. bajaboundmoto

    bajaboundmoto Been here awhile

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    So on April 7th if I'm leading one of my business rides (which I will be) on the section from LA Bay to Ignacio and I am seen by Mike or Ken or whomever does that mean I'm DQ'd (i mean, IF i was entered)?
    Oh, and by the way, I won't be riding that section anyway along with much other Mex1k uses cuz there's way better stuff out there to ride.
    Or like X on here who just did a Baja ride... he's racing too so is he DQ'd.
    Like Chris and Strong said, it's impossibe to enforce.
    Not starting a pissing match, just sayin'

    And for sure Marks hit his head too many times... I'm with Chris saying "there's only so many places you can run vintage". There is no freekin' way I'd want to race (drive) some of these NORRA cars thru a LOT of typical SCORE course. For 1 it wouldn't be fun and 2 it would destroy beautiful machinery.

    Damn, I think you guys type too much and I just added to it.

    Oh yeah, I forgot the.... "!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
  20. roadracer

    roadracer Been here awhile

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    Don't forget that the San Filipe 250 course essentially ran D1SS1 and D1SS2. =)

    If the course is essentially the same every year, I don't think it matters if they allow pre-running. If the course is going to be substantially different, I would suggest they just keep it secret until race day.

    The organizer taking a special few on a pre-running trip with a new course isn't super cool though...